7 ms·

Eating a dog biscuit for disrupting class is childhood trauma? Holy hell you people must have had some privileged childhoods.

pavel_lishin 9y ago
My kindergarten in Russia served us omelettes, once. Awful, horrendous omelettes. And they made me sit there until I finished it, or until the school day was over. I sat there until the school day was over. To this very day, despite having had some tasty ones, I still have an aversion to omelettes. Even the name makes me recall the gross taste. So, that's some light trauma, I guess. But it's just a shitty-tasting omelette, same as a shitty-tasting dog biscuit. It's not fucking child abuse.
- zepto 9y ago
  You should do some research into developmental trauma. I suspect that experience has affected you more than you think. Or maybe there was a lot of other abuse in your upbringing and this was normal to you.
  - pavel_lishin 9y ago
    I mean, I grew up in Soviet Russia. My other fun childhood memories include dental work without anaesthesia, a dentist ripping two teeth out with a pair of pliers, my dad falling asleep drunk on the subway and my mom pretending not to know who he is, my friend almost getting crushed to death by a collapsing fence, etc. But overall, being forced to eat something you don't want to eat is a normal part of growing up - kids are fickle and don't realize that some things gotta be done because they're good for you. Being forced to eat dog biscuits is obviously all-punishment-and-no-broccoli, and serving me a shitty omelette was clearly memorable enough to turn me off of them for life, but if I were to make a things I'd work on to improve myself, dealing with the psychological trauma of poorly cooked eggs is waaay down on the list by any objective measure.
    - zepto 9y ago
      Right - very much my point. https://youtu.be/VKHFZBUTA4k https://youtu.be/VKHFZBUTA4k
      - pavel_lishin 9y ago
        I hear what you're saying, and I appreciate the concern, but I seem to have come out of it okay, all things considered. I'm a happy, functioning adult with a job, a family, and two cats. How far do we dig? You basically suggested I get therapy because I don't like omelettes. I later on admitted a lot of stuff that would probably adversely affect people, but I seem to be coping with it fine. Do we recommend that everyone undergo therapy because they had to eat broccoli? Because a dog bit them? Because they didn't get that pony for their birthday? We're human beings with human being brains that can cope pretty decently with varying levels of unhappiness, and get through it. If your dad beat you with an electrical cable, please get therapy. If your dad made you mow the lawn in 95 degree weather, then you might need therapy to cope for it - depending on your individual mental state - but it's not an absolute indicator that you're suffering and need medical assistance. ConceptJunkie pointed out about society swinging in a lenient direction. I don't think I agree with him specifically, but I do agree that some people can overcorrect and see abuse where there isn't none, and think someone needs help when they might not.
        JustSomeNobody 9y ago
        > We're human beings with human being brains that can cope pretty decently with varying levels of unhappiness, and get through it. Children who are subjected to trauma, their brains develop differently! This isn't a coping mechanism of the brain! It just plain doesn't develop correctly. http://wellcommons.com/groups/aces/2011/jul/22/this-is-a-brain-on-trauma-this-is-the-li/ http://wellcommons.com/groups/aces/2011/jul/22/this-is-a-bra...
        pavel_lishin 9y ago
        I agree that trauma causes actual measurable physical changes in a child's brain. My stupid omelette is not one of those things.
- ConceptJunkie 9y ago
  You've got a point. Whether or not it was appropriate to treat you that way (I'd say it wasn't), there are millions and millions of people who face the situation of eating something that tastes awful... or not eating at all. A little bit of hardship builds character, but it can be a fine line between "good" hardship and abusive hardship. Society has swung too far in the lenient direction and we have a generation (or two) of entitled snowflakes who often can't deal with the simplest aspects of life.
  - pavel_lishin 9y ago
    > Society has swung too far in the lenient direction and we have a generation (or two) of entitled snowflakes who often can't deal with the simplest aspects of life. I call bullshit. You're generalizing a whole generation, a generation that's growing up during a time of rapid change and upheaval. I could easily counter that Baby Boomers are the snowflakes who grew up coddled, but I actually don't think this is the simple truth, either. Just because it's easy to share stories online of people who need Safe Spaces from their professors giving them a B+ doesn't mean the whole generation is emotionally crippled because their parents didn't give them enough chores to do.
  - JustSomeNobody 9y ago
    You're conflating two things here. 1) Humiliating a child is trauma. HN can disagree all they want, but HN is wrong. It is trauma. Trauma in children have physical effects. Their brains develop differently. This is proven. Emotional trauma is one of the most impactful forms of trauma, but also one of the least ... recognized (for lack of a better word). 2) Being overly lenient on your child or giving everyone a trophy or just not discussing with your child that sometimes you're gonna lose or fail is setting them up for a very hard life and this parental behavior is wrong. When they become adults they don't have the tools to understand how to handle failure. This can lead to all sorts of psychological issues.
dragonwriter 9y ago
> Eating a dog biscuit for disrupting class is childhood trauma? No, being hauled in front of the class as a target of humiliation is trauma; the dog biscuit is an incidental part of the mechanism. > Holy hell you people must have had some privileged childhoods. Having had far worse experiences in my own childhood does not prevent me from recognizing that public humiliation of this kind is traumatic.
- TallGuyShort 9y ago
  Oh. See I thought the bigger concern would be the low health standards for dog biscuits, not simply being called out for inconsiderate behavior.
  - colanderman 9y ago
    Simply calling students out for bad behavior is not usually a problem (though it can be in multicultural settings). Bringing them to the front of the room to humiliate them is another matter entirely. It denigrates them in the eyes of their classmates and sets them up for bullying by their peers by modeling that behavior.
    - mapt 9y ago
      "Because of Tim here's behavior, none of you will get recess. Now I'm going to take a bathroom break, and you think about that, Tim." Doubtlessly effective, but is a culture of collective punishment, where we all beat the shit out of Tim for the next 15 minutes, really something you want to inculcate?
      - colanderman 9y ago
        Where did I advocate collective punishment? That is, as you say, terrible. To be clear, I find nothing wrong with Tim himself not getting recess. Individual punishment doesn't necessarily entail humiliation (which I think is the inference you're making).
colanderman 9y ago
Public humiliation by an authority figure is traumatic. It's a form of punishment specifically prohibited by most schools I've taught at. Not to mention if I had a child and someone force fed him anything I'd be filing charges. Privileged childhood? Nah, I was subjected to public humiliation a few times too. Though I was lucky to have a mother who both recognized the injustice in such and knew what strings to pull to get those responsible held accountable.
- TallGuyShort 9y ago
  If this level of public humiliation is what's making you say you didn't have a privileged childhood, you had an incredibly privileged childhood. I can't imagine how traumatic it was for people to be gasp held accountable for their actions.
  - JustSomeNobody 9y ago
    Nothing wrong with being held accountable for your actions. The means by which you're held accountable should not be abusive, however.
  - colanderman 9y ago
    What weird world do you live in that "eating a dog biscuit" is "being held accountable" for one's actions? Imagine you fucked up at your job; brought down the production server or something. And at the next team meeting, your boss brings out a dog bowl with moist dog food in it and tells you to get on the ground and eat it. And if you don't, you'll get demoted. That's fucked up, right? No different than forcing a kid to eat a dog biscuit because he chatted too much. Modern disciplinary theory promotes the idea of "natural consequences". If someone were chatty in my classroom, the natural consequence is to separate them from whomever they're chatting. It's both a punishment (can't sit near friends any longer) and solves the problem (not near those kid wants to chat to). Alternatively, if the kid just speaks out a lot and ignores material, start asking them to recap for the class what we just went over. Again, both a punishment (has to do extra work) and solves the problem (forces better attention, redirects attention-seeking behavior). No humiliation needed beyond simply getting called out by the teacher for the disruption – again, a natural consequence. Public humiliation is especially insidious in multicultural classrooms. While western students may take public humiliation in stride (as me and my co-conspirators did), students from some backgrounds (e.g. east Asian) take public humiliation, especially from an authority figure, extremely harshly, making such disciplinary actions a very poor idea. We live in a civilized society with lots of behavioral research. No need to resort to arbitrary public humiliation to enforce discipline.
JustSomeNobody 9y ago
I urge you to read up on childhood trauma before you dismiss me.
- grotsnot 9y ago
  Trauma like having a bunch of idiots yammering away in class so that the rest of us can't get an education?
  - TallGuyShort 9y ago
    After some Googling on the term "Adverse Childhood Experiences", I found this list: Physical abuse, Sexual abuse, Emotional abuse, Physical neglect, Emotional neglect, Mother treated violently, Substance misuse within household, Household mental illness, Parental separation or divorce, Incarcerated household member. Still can't find much about how humiliating it is to be punished for disrupting class, though.
    - JustSomeNobody 9y ago
      It's right there in your list: Emotional Abuse.
      - TallGuyShort 9y ago
        And we're back to the beginning. If you agree with another reply to my original comment that the problem is the humiliation aspect of this and not the force-feeding of a dog biscuit, that is a disappointing and pathetic threshold for abuse. And explains a lot about our current political climate.
        logfromblammo 9y ago
        I recall a chemistry class where any student caught not wearing their safety goggles would have to sing "the goggles song" in front of the entire class. o/~ Goggles. You love your goggles. They will keep. Your. Eyes. From. Burning up! So wear your goggles, Upon your eyeballs. If you don't, You. Must. Sing! (+repeat ad nauseam) -OR- Stay out! o/~ Sometimes the threat of humiliation works as intended.
mr_overalls 9y ago
Holy smokes, I agree. Pain is unavoidable, but trauma (emotional suffering) is calibrated to cultural expectations. Not to lionize enduring abuse as a badge of honor, but I grew up in the rural American South several decades ago. School paddlings were common in my religious school, as were mouth-washing with soap (for cursing), and forced prayer. Aside from giving me a distaste for authority and organized religion, I wouldn't regard these things as traumatic. My Polish friend grew up putting bread-bags in his disintegrating shoes, so that his feet wouldn't freeze. My Salvadoran friend's father was basically scalped alive by drug dealers because he wouldn't serve them in his restaurant. The upper end of the trauma scale goes far beyond dog biscuits.
- colanderman 9y ago
  > The upper end of the trauma scale goes far beyond dog biscuits. It sure does. And change starts with the next generation. Society advances through normalizing more civilized behavior in youth.
ConceptJunkie 9y ago
As the greatest story of childhood ever shows us, the most important aspects of childhood are terror and humiliation. In all seriousness, people who had a little hardship when young are much better equipped to handle real hardship when it comes along. And even if real hardship never comes along, they are better equipped to sacrifice to improve themselves. We've made a huge mistake in making it too easy on our kids, and I'm saying this as a parent who's done the same thing, to a large extent.
- watwut 9y ago
  That is not entirely truth. Bullied kids often become bullies as they grow older and stronger. When people with authority abuse the authority, the kids are likely to mimic it once they grow. It does matter where the hardship comes from and whether kid understands it. Also, generations that grew up during bad times (like war) had higher criminality rates then later happier generations. People from bad socioeconomic situation had worst results then spoiled middle class kids. While you are not serving your children well by spoiling them, too much hardship has worst statistically measurable consequences. Yet also, I remember some humiliating experiences that ended with me not willing to try activity that lead to experience - ever. Or at least not when someone is looking.

pavel_lishin 9y ago

My kindergarten in Russia served us omelettes, once. Awful, horrendous omelettes. And they made me sit there until I finished it, or until the school day was over. I sat there until the school day was over. To this very day, despite having had some tasty ones, I still have an aversion to omelettes. Even the name makes me recall the gross taste. So, that's some light trauma, I guess. But it's just a shitty-tasting omelette, same as a shitty-tasting dog biscuit. It's not fucking child abuse.

zepto 9y ago
You should do some research into developmental trauma. I suspect that experience has affected you more than you think. Or maybe there was a lot of other abuse in your upbringing and this was normal to you.
- pavel_lishin 9y ago
  I mean, I grew up in Soviet Russia. My other fun childhood memories include dental work without anaesthesia, a dentist ripping two teeth out with a pair of pliers, my dad falling asleep drunk on the subway and my mom pretending not to know who he is, my friend almost getting crushed to death by a collapsing fence, etc. But overall, being forced to eat something you don't want to eat is a normal part of growing up - kids are fickle and don't realize that some things gotta be done because they're good for you. Being forced to eat dog biscuits is obviously all-punishment-and-no-broccoli, and serving me a shitty omelette was clearly memorable enough to turn me off of them for life, but if I were to make a things I'd work on to improve myself, dealing with the psychological trauma of poorly cooked eggs is waaay down on the list by any objective measure.
  - zepto 9y ago
    Right - very much my point. https://youtu.be/VKHFZBUTA4k https://youtu.be/VKHFZBUTA4k
    - pavel_lishin 9y ago
      I hear what you're saying, and I appreciate the concern, but I seem to have come out of it okay, all things considered. I'm a happy, functioning adult with a job, a family, and two cats. How far do we dig? You basically suggested I get therapy because I don't like omelettes. I later on admitted a lot of stuff that would probably adversely affect people, but I seem to be coping with it fine. Do we recommend that everyone undergo therapy because they had to eat broccoli? Because a dog bit them? Because they didn't get that pony for their birthday? We're human beings with human being brains that can cope pretty decently with varying levels of unhappiness, and get through it. If your dad beat you with an electrical cable, please get therapy. If your dad made you mow the lawn in 95 degree weather, then you might need therapy to cope for it - depending on your individual mental state - but it's not an absolute indicator that you're suffering and need medical assistance. ConceptJunkie pointed out about society swinging in a lenient direction. I don't think I agree with him specifically, but I do agree that some people can overcorrect and see abuse where there isn't none, and think someone needs help when they might not.
      - JustSomeNobody 9y ago
        > We're human beings with human being brains that can cope pretty decently with varying levels of unhappiness, and get through it. Children who are subjected to trauma, their brains develop differently! This isn't a coping mechanism of the brain! It just plain doesn't develop correctly. http://wellcommons.com/groups/aces/2011/jul/22/this-is-a-brain-on-trauma-this-is-the-li/ http://wellcommons.com/groups/aces/2011/jul/22/this-is-a-bra...
        pavel_lishin 9y ago
        I agree that trauma causes actual measurable physical changes in a child's brain. My stupid omelette is not one of those things.
ConceptJunkie 9y ago
You've got a point. Whether or not it was appropriate to treat you that way (I'd say it wasn't), there are millions and millions of people who face the situation of eating something that tastes awful... or not eating at all. A little bit of hardship builds character, but it can be a fine line between "good" hardship and abusive hardship. Society has swung too far in the lenient direction and we have a generation (or two) of entitled snowflakes who often can't deal with the simplest aspects of life.
- pavel_lishin 9y ago
  > Society has swung too far in the lenient direction and we have a generation (or two) of entitled snowflakes who often can't deal with the simplest aspects of life. I call bullshit. You're generalizing a whole generation, a generation that's growing up during a time of rapid change and upheaval. I could easily counter that Baby Boomers are the snowflakes who grew up coddled, but I actually don't think this is the simple truth, either. Just because it's easy to share stories online of people who need Safe Spaces from their professors giving them a B+ doesn't mean the whole generation is emotionally crippled because their parents didn't give them enough chores to do.
- JustSomeNobody 9y ago
  You're conflating two things here. 1) Humiliating a child is trauma. HN can disagree all they want, but HN is wrong. It is trauma. Trauma in children have physical effects. Their brains develop differently. This is proven. Emotional trauma is one of the most impactful forms of trauma, but also one of the least ... recognized (for lack of a better word). 2) Being overly lenient on your child or giving everyone a trophy or just not discussing with your child that sometimes you're gonna lose or fail is setting them up for a very hard life and this parental behavior is wrong. When they become adults they don't have the tools to understand how to handle failure. This can lead to all sorts of psychological issues.

dragonwriter 9y ago

> Eating a dog biscuit for disrupting class is childhood trauma? No, being hauled in front of the class as a target of humiliation is trauma; the dog biscuit is an incidental part of the mechanism. > Holy hell you people must have had some privileged childhoods. Having had far worse experiences in my own childhood does not prevent me from recognizing that public humiliation of this kind is traumatic.

TallGuyShort 9y ago
Oh. See I thought the bigger concern would be the low health standards for dog biscuits, not simply being called out for inconsiderate behavior.
- colanderman 9y ago
  Simply calling students out for bad behavior is not usually a problem (though it can be in multicultural settings). Bringing them to the front of the room to humiliate them is another matter entirely. It denigrates them in the eyes of their classmates and sets them up for bullying by their peers by modeling that behavior.
  - mapt 9y ago
    "Because of Tim here's behavior, none of you will get recess. Now I'm going to take a bathroom break, and you think about that, Tim." Doubtlessly effective, but is a culture of collective punishment, where we all beat the shit out of Tim for the next 15 minutes, really something you want to inculcate?
    - colanderman 9y ago
      Where did I advocate collective punishment? That is, as you say, terrible. To be clear, I find nothing wrong with Tim himself not getting recess. Individual punishment doesn't necessarily entail humiliation (which I think is the inference you're making).

colanderman 9y ago

Public humiliation by an authority figure is traumatic. It's a form of punishment specifically prohibited by most schools I've taught at. Not to mention if I had a child and someone force fed him anything I'd be filing charges. Privileged childhood? Nah, I was subjected to public humiliation a few times too. Though I was lucky to have a mother who both recognized the injustice in such and knew what strings to pull to get those responsible held accountable.

TallGuyShort 9y ago
If this level of public humiliation is what's making you say you didn't have a privileged childhood, you had an incredibly privileged childhood. I can't imagine how traumatic it was for people to be gasp held accountable for their actions.
- JustSomeNobody 9y ago
  Nothing wrong with being held accountable for your actions. The means by which you're held accountable should not be abusive, however.
- colanderman 9y ago
  What weird world do you live in that "eating a dog biscuit" is "being held accountable" for one's actions? Imagine you fucked up at your job; brought down the production server or something. And at the next team meeting, your boss brings out a dog bowl with moist dog food in it and tells you to get on the ground and eat it. And if you don't, you'll get demoted. That's fucked up, right? No different than forcing a kid to eat a dog biscuit because he chatted too much. Modern disciplinary theory promotes the idea of "natural consequences". If someone were chatty in my classroom, the natural consequence is to separate them from whomever they're chatting. It's both a punishment (can't sit near friends any longer) and solves the problem (not near those kid wants to chat to). Alternatively, if the kid just speaks out a lot and ignores material, start asking them to recap for the class what we just went over. Again, both a punishment (has to do extra work) and solves the problem (forces better attention, redirects attention-seeking behavior). No humiliation needed beyond simply getting called out by the teacher for the disruption – again, a natural consequence. Public humiliation is especially insidious in multicultural classrooms. While western students may take public humiliation in stride (as me and my co-conspirators did), students from some backgrounds (e.g. east Asian) take public humiliation, especially from an authority figure, extremely harshly, making such disciplinary actions a very poor idea. We live in a civilized society with lots of behavioral research. No need to resort to arbitrary public humiliation to enforce discipline.

JustSomeNobody 9y ago

I urge you to read up on childhood trauma before you dismiss me.

grotsnot 9y ago
Trauma like having a bunch of idiots yammering away in class so that the rest of us can't get an education?
- TallGuyShort 9y ago
  After some Googling on the term "Adverse Childhood Experiences", I found this list: Physical abuse, Sexual abuse, Emotional abuse, Physical neglect, Emotional neglect, Mother treated violently, Substance misuse within household, Household mental illness, Parental separation or divorce, Incarcerated household member. Still can't find much about how humiliating it is to be punished for disrupting class, though.
  - JustSomeNobody 9y ago
    It's right there in your list: Emotional Abuse.
    - TallGuyShort 9y ago
      And we're back to the beginning. If you agree with another reply to my original comment that the problem is the humiliation aspect of this and not the force-feeding of a dog biscuit, that is a disappointing and pathetic threshold for abuse. And explains a lot about our current political climate.
      - logfromblammo 9y ago
        I recall a chemistry class where any student caught not wearing their safety goggles would have to sing "the goggles song" in front of the entire class. o/~ Goggles. You love your goggles. They will keep. Your. Eyes. From. Burning up! So wear your goggles, Upon your eyeballs. If you don't, You. Must. Sing! (+repeat ad nauseam) -OR- Stay out! o/~ Sometimes the threat of humiliation works as intended.

mr_overalls 9y ago

Holy smokes, I agree. Pain is unavoidable, but trauma (emotional suffering) is calibrated to cultural expectations. Not to lionize enduring abuse as a badge of honor, but I grew up in the rural American South several decades ago. School paddlings were common in my religious school, as were mouth-washing with soap (for cursing), and forced prayer. Aside from giving me a distaste for authority and organized religion, I wouldn't regard these things as traumatic. My Polish friend grew up putting bread-bags in his disintegrating shoes, so that his feet wouldn't freeze. My Salvadoran friend's father was basically scalped alive by drug dealers because he wouldn't serve them in his restaurant. The upper end of the trauma scale goes far beyond dog biscuits.

colanderman 9y ago
> The upper end of the trauma scale goes far beyond dog biscuits. It sure does. And change starts with the next generation. Society advances through normalizing more civilized behavior in youth.

ConceptJunkie 9y ago

As the greatest story of childhood ever shows us, the most important aspects of childhood are terror and humiliation. In all seriousness, people who had a little hardship when young are much better equipped to handle real hardship when it comes along. And even if real hardship never comes along, they are better equipped to sacrifice to improve themselves. We've made a huge mistake in making it too easy on our kids, and I'm saying this as a parent who's done the same thing, to a large extent.

watwut 9y ago
That is not entirely truth. Bullied kids often become bullies as they grow older and stronger. When people with authority abuse the authority, the kids are likely to mimic it once they grow. It does matter where the hardship comes from and whether kid understands it. Also, generations that grew up during bad times (like war) had higher criminality rates then later happier generations. People from bad socioeconomic situation had worst results then spoiled middle class kids. While you are not serving your children well by spoiling them, too much hardship has worst statistically measurable consequences. Yet also, I remember some humiliating experiences that ended with me not willing to try activity that lead to experience - ever. Or at least not when someone is looking.