7 ms·

as long as Assad was ruling Assad's secular dictatorship is massively preferable to ISIS rule, especially to the 25% of the Syrian population that are non-Sunn

as long as Assad was ruling Assad's secular dictatorship is massively preferable to ISIS rule, especially to the 25% of the Syrian population that are non-Sunni.

jansho 9y ago
Sigh, it seems so surreal now that the Arab Spring was once cheered on by the whole world. Edit: word
- varjag 9y ago
  The less Arab revolutions were stomped on, the more favorable was the outcome. The progression from Tunisa through Egypt and Lybia to Syria is quite evident. What's really surreal is so many people in the (still relatively free) West denying basic agency to their fellow human beings in the Middle East.
  - jansho 9y ago
    > so many people in the (still relatively free) West denying basic agency to their fellow human beings Because there's a lot of cynicism with charities and foreign aid. There is an active campaign here in Britain to reduce the latter and anecdotally, I have friends and relatives who refuse to donate to aid agencies because they believe that the whole thing is a sham. Sure there's bureaucracy, but most of them are genuinely hardworking and already operating on shoestring budgets...
    - wavefunction 9y ago
      You could point them to clearinghouses like CharityNavigator [0] (which is probably US-centric) that rate the charities on things like how much of their donations go to administration. The short of it is that one can donate to Oxfam, Save the Children or Medecins san Frontieres and remain confident that >95% of funds raised go to direct relief efforts. [0]https://www.charitynavigator.org/ https://www.charitynavigator.org/
    - varjag 9y ago
      Agency as having their own interests and following their own agenda, it has nothing to do with charity. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agency_(sociology) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agency_(sociology) For example the view professed here by you and the GP, that Arabs should have quietly suffered in their dictatorship without right to dissent, is denying the agency.
- pjc50 9y ago
  Too many people believe in the movie version of the American revolution.
  - JBReefer 9y ago
    God I agree, can you imagine how Ethan Allen would be covered today? I don't know enough to have a side in the Syria conflict, but man, the Green Mountain Boys weren't so far off from a lot of modern non-state actors.
    - pjc50 9y ago
      Google tells me he's a furniture store these days. (I'm a Brit, so my knowledge of the American Revolution is cobbled together from popular media, Sid Meier's Colonization, Wikipedia, anti-colonialist literature, and a trip to Boston. The latter led me to believe it was mostly about lobsters. This may or may not be more accurate than what's taught in US schools)
ido 9y ago
I agree, but that wasn't my question - can Syria have something better than Assad eventually, and how do you get to it without overthrowing Assad?
- LostInTheWoods2 9y ago
  Assad eventually dies, probably of old age.
  - ido 9y ago
    Current Assad is already the son of the previous dictator.
    - throwaway29292 9y ago
      Can we get his children interested in programming or something?
      - nyolfen 9y ago
        bashar started off as an american-educated dentist
        ido 9y ago
        There was a lot of high hopes in Israel when he succeeded his father, that his rule would be pro-western.
      - thriftwy 9y ago
        Assad is an ophtalmologist with a British spouse. Didn't seem to help much.
    - toyg 9y ago
      You can eventually "sublimate away" a hereditary ruling family; that's what lots of European countries have done. In some cases (like Pinochet or Franco), the ruling dictator simply accepts there is no point in continuing and just dies away without bestowing the country on his children. People tend to forget that Middle-Eastern countries are all pretty young from an institutional perspective. Before the mid-XX century they did not exist in forms resembling the current ones. Ottoman collapse, Arab consolidation and general decolonisation were fluid processes that sprung (or were forced to spring) very complex entities with all sorts of growing pains.
mcguire 9y ago
And here we have the last 70 years of United States foreign policy in a nutshell.
- knz 9y ago
  > United States foreign policy Western foreign policy. And in many ways extending back well into the time of European Colonial powers carving out territory and promoting the interests of more friendly tribes/ethnicities to maintain stability and keep the money flowing.

as long as Assad was ruling Assad's secular dictatorship is massively preferable to ISIS rule, especially to the 25% of the Syrian population that are non-Sunni.

jansho 9y ago

Sigh, it seems so surreal now that the Arab Spring was once cheered on by the whole world. Edit: word

varjag 9y ago
The less Arab revolutions were stomped on, the more favorable was the outcome. The progression from Tunisa through Egypt and Lybia to Syria is quite evident. What's really surreal is so many people in the (still relatively free) West denying basic agency to their fellow human beings in the Middle East.
- jansho 9y ago
  > so many people in the (still relatively free) West denying basic agency to their fellow human beings Because there's a lot of cynicism with charities and foreign aid. There is an active campaign here in Britain to reduce the latter and anecdotally, I have friends and relatives who refuse to donate to aid agencies because they believe that the whole thing is a sham. Sure there's bureaucracy, but most of them are genuinely hardworking and already operating on shoestring budgets...
  - wavefunction 9y ago
    You could point them to clearinghouses like CharityNavigator [0] (which is probably US-centric) that rate the charities on things like how much of their donations go to administration. The short of it is that one can donate to Oxfam, Save the Children or Medecins san Frontieres and remain confident that >95% of funds raised go to direct relief efforts. [0]https://www.charitynavigator.org/ https://www.charitynavigator.org/
  - varjag 9y ago
    Agency as having their own interests and following their own agenda, it has nothing to do with charity. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agency_(sociology) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agency_(sociology) For example the view professed here by you and the GP, that Arabs should have quietly suffered in their dictatorship without right to dissent, is denying the agency.
pjc50 9y ago
Too many people believe in the movie version of the American revolution.
- JBReefer 9y ago
  God I agree, can you imagine how Ethan Allen would be covered today? I don't know enough to have a side in the Syria conflict, but man, the Green Mountain Boys weren't so far off from a lot of modern non-state actors.
  - pjc50 9y ago
    Google tells me he's a furniture store these days. (I'm a Brit, so my knowledge of the American Revolution is cobbled together from popular media, Sid Meier's Colonization, Wikipedia, anti-colonialist literature, and a trip to Boston. The latter led me to believe it was mostly about lobsters. This may or may not be more accurate than what's taught in US schools)

ido 9y ago

I agree, but that wasn't my question - can Syria have something better than Assad eventually, and how do you get to it without overthrowing Assad?

LostInTheWoods2 9y ago
Assad eventually dies, probably of old age.
- ido 9y ago
  Current Assad is already the son of the previous dictator.
  - throwaway29292 9y ago
    Can we get his children interested in programming or something?
    - nyolfen 9y ago
      bashar started off as an american-educated dentist
      - ido 9y ago
        There was a lot of high hopes in Israel when he succeeded his father, that his rule would be pro-western.
    - thriftwy 9y ago
      Assad is an ophtalmologist with a British spouse. Didn't seem to help much.
  - toyg 9y ago
    You can eventually "sublimate away" a hereditary ruling family; that's what lots of European countries have done. In some cases (like Pinochet or Franco), the ruling dictator simply accepts there is no point in continuing and just dies away without bestowing the country on his children. People tend to forget that Middle-Eastern countries are all pretty young from an institutional perspective. Before the mid-XX century they did not exist in forms resembling the current ones. Ottoman collapse, Arab consolidation and general decolonisation were fluid processes that sprung (or were forced to spring) very complex entities with all sorts of growing pains.

mcguire 9y ago

And here we have the last 70 years of United States foreign policy in a nutshell.

knz 9y ago
> United States foreign policy Western foreign policy. And in many ways extending back well into the time of European Colonial powers carving out territory and promoting the interests of more friendly tribes/ethnicities to maintain stability and keep the money flowing.