26 ms·

What was Syria like before the war

283 points by iheredia 9y ago

h1d 9y ago
Nice presentation. First time I ever saw a web site use phone's gyrometer to rotate around for 360 view.
- BooglyWoo 9y ago
  Have you seen hypernom.com for visualizing 4 dimensions?
candiodari 9y ago
I wish there were more definite sources detailing what the actual conflict is about. People are giving all sorts of accounts online and it seems to be divided into a few camps: 1) western and sunni middle eastern press: it's all Assad's (government's) fault. People want democracy. Specifically this is supposed to be a response to violent repression of pro-democracy protests from March 2011. Problem: very hard to believe. The attitude of the government against the people of Syria has not changed, and the "protesters" do not seem very pro-democracy at all. Second problem: the middle eastern press (al Jazeera) is owned by a government that would stand to benefit substantially from the pipeline issue. Even aside from the pipeline, that government is involved in funding the exremists in Syria. 2) shi'a middle eastern press Coordinated Sunni attack against one of the two last multicultural/tolerant middle eastern Countries (the other one being Iran, and while Israel is multicultural/tolerant Iran doesn't see it that way). It's an attack to massacre the last vestiges of tolerance in the middle east. Problem: obviously this is state propaganda. That doesn't mean it's not true, of course, but there are military interests at stake by the same people who own these press. 3) Russian press (there were/are hundreds of thousands of Russians from the Soviet union who lived in Syria) This is a coordinated assault against the last Russian ally on the mediterranean. They note the same as the Shi'a press does (attack on tolerance for non-Sunnis), and also note the pipeline project that would deliver oil from. Problem: of course this too is state propaganda. 4) Catholic information sources (there is/was no shortage of Monasteries in Syria) Well-funded Sunni extremists attacking (and killing) everyone in sight, with no identifiable cause. Ethnic cleansing, including even of Sunni's that don't want to fight for them. They seem to disagree with the notions that the fighters care about either Russian interests, or the pipeline (though the funding parties might think differently) Problem: They're not very willing to come forward with information, and the few times they do they say they really fear retaliation. The ones that come forward are refugees.
- netsharc 9y ago
  Not that I have followed it that closely, but of course it's not a black vs white conflict, more like several factions wanting to win power/suppress their enemies. I think it started as a demonstration against the corrupt Assad that turned violent when his army started shooting. The "rebels" picked up arms and probably brutally kills pro-government soldiers/citizens, so they are not saints either. Meanwhile ISIS takes advantage of the chaos to try to win control of regions. The Kurds are fighting them because there's probably a Kurdish area in Syria? But Erdogan doesn't like a Kurdish rise, so he's probably quietly looking the other way as European ISIS sympathisers travel via Turkey in and out of Syria. Russia wants Assad to stay in power because he's a puppet, so he's bombing "rebels" and ISIS. We haven't even mentioned Iran and the USA. As this report https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/10/16/world/middleeast/untangling-the-overlapping-conflicts-in-the-syrian-war.html?_r=0 https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/10/16/world/middlee... says, in one side of the conflict USA (at least Obama's USA) is working with Russia, in another side they're backing opposing sides.
  - matt4077 9y ago
    Excellent summary. One addition: The Kurdish vs. ISIS conflicts are, or at least were, mostly in northern Iraq, where ISIS started back when Syria was still a stable Dicktatorship, but the Iraqi government was (and still is) weak and hated.
  - mafribe 9y ago
    started as a demonstration against the corrupt Assad It's unlikely that this was spontaneous, and most likely the first public result of a planned and well-funded regime-change operation.
    - matt4077 9y ago
      Yeah, never in the history of mankind has anyone protested without being paid by George Soros, right?
      - 9y ago
RandVal30141 9y ago
"I wish there were more definite sources detailing what the actual conflict is about. " The death of Hamza Khateeb[1] comes to mind. Political and civil unrest was already underway, but the open violence against civilians including children sent Syria down a path. The government butchered that child among others caught for demonstrations or showing dissent. "The attitude of the government against the people of Syria has not changed" Laughable commentary in the face of regular chemical weapons attacks by the regime and it's paramilitary forces/Hezbollah allies. This is a government that besieges and pummels civilian areas with indiscriminate weapons until they accept forced displacement under the 'reconciliation' campaign. To say it's attitude has not changed since before the protests is absurd. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Hamza_Ali_Al-Khateeb https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Hamza_Ali_Al-Khateeb
- candiodari 9y ago
  > The death of Hamza Khateeb Ok, but how do you go from that to islamic state ? And frankly, how does a protest like that get organised in the first place by the locals ? > regular chemical weapons attacks by the regime Maybe I'm misinformed, but I seem to only recall that the government was accused of doing this once. This is neither regular, nor was it the cause of the conflict.
  - RandVal30141 9y ago
    "accuse" Not accused, found culpable by OPCW[1] along with ISIS. The chlorine attacks have been on-going, including the siege of Aleppo, on Hama and north Homs, and in the Damascus area. Method of delivery has been air dropped[2] or IRAM type. " And frankly, how does a protest like that get organised in the first place by the locals" I'm hoping this is not a joke. Local coordination committees[3] have long been involved in organizing demonstrations and media exposure. People voted on the weekly theme[4] for Friday protests even. When you see logos of Syrian media on CNN and other outlets it is often bearing the logos of these groups. Yes, locals and organize protests among themselves and others in their nation. [1] https://www.opcw.org/news/article/opcw-executive-council-adopts-decision-regarding-the-opcw-united-nations-joint-investigative-mechanism-reports-about-chemical-weapons-use-in-the-syrian-arab-republic/ https://www.opcw.org/news/article/opcw-executive-council-ado... [2] https://youtu.be/PiDntC_E0SY https://youtu.be/PiDntC_E0SY [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_Coordination_Committees_of_Syria https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_Coordination_Committees_... [4] http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/8641167/Syria-largest-protests-against-President-Bashar-al-Assad-to-date-as-thousands-flood-the-streets.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/8...
Kluny 9y ago
Wow, I'd love to check this out but I got this message: "It looks like you're using an older device or web browser. Please update your browser or visit on a newer device." A bit of an odd thing to see when I'm on the latest version of Chrome on a Mac and it says "In partnership with Google" right under that. What gives?
- aaron695 9y ago
  Same. Working on my phone, I think it's mobile only?
  - madiathomas 9y ago
    It isn't mobile only. I visited it using Chrome Version 58.0.3029.110 (64-bit) on Windows 10. Works fine.
    - raverbashing 9y ago
      Version 57 on Mac. "Older device or Web browser" Edit: updated to 58, still get the message. What a joke Edit2: Worked under FF on Mac
      - madiathomas 9y ago
        Maybe they are sniffing for OS and assume you are using Safari.
        unicornporn 9y ago
        For me it didn't work in Firefox on macOS, but it worked in latest Chromium. What a mystery.
      - jiri 9y ago
        I am Win10, Chrom 58, same message. Yeah, what a joke.
iamjeff 9y ago
This is totally off topic (and may even be taken to be insensitive considering the plight of the Syrian people), but I had to ask: is there any way that you/anyone/HNer could offer suggestions on how to deploy such a site for a non-developer...are there free/self-hosted themes and/or frameworks whose installation and use is noob-friendly enough to lend themselves well to interactive storytelling...? Any help/pointers would be immensely appreciated.
- paradite 9y ago
  http://pageflow.io/en/ http://pageflow.io/en/ example of final product: http://multimedia.dw.com/the-mysterious-mass-die-off-of-saiga-antelopes-in-kazakhstan http://multimedia.dw.com/the-mysterious-mass-die-off-of-saig...
- PetitPrince 9y ago
  From a "I think it's more technical" to "I think it's less technical" order: * This website uses fullPage.js [1], which is a widely used javascript library for such full screen presentation (for instance Apple use it in their Mac Pro promo page [2]). You can get around it's API if you know a little HTML and a little javascript, but it's still a lot of manual work. And the neatier features are locked behind a (totally justified) paywall. * One neat generator I know is Jack Qiao's Expose[3] which he mainly uses in his travel photography website [4]. Check out those sweet cinemagraphs ! Unfortunately it is a command-line program which may be a bit obtuse to non-developer (especially on Windows), and the text placement has to be set manually * Shameless plug: as a side project, I made a clone of Expose in Python [5] (demo [6]) with no video support but explicit Markdown support (so you can embed maps, youtube videos and others ). It's still a command line app, but I'm working on a second version that uses Electron and has a more WYSIWYG approach. It is still very much a side project though. * You could look at some web-based presentation framework. Slid.es [7] is an WYSIWYG builder for the reveal.js library [8]. It's mainly used for Powerpoint-ish presentation (ex. [9][10]), but with a touch of creativity you can do neat thing, like this portfolio [11]. [1]: https://alvarotrigo.com/fullPage/ https://alvarotrigo.com/fullPage/ [2]: https://www.apple.com/mac-pro/ https://www.apple.com/mac-pro/ [3]: https://github.com/Jack000/Expose https://github.com/Jack000/Expose [4]: http://jack.ventures/ http://jack.ventures/ [5]: https://github.com/PetitPrince/pyxpose https://github.com/PetitPrince/pyxpose [6]: http://petitprince.github.io/pyxpose-demo/gallery.html http://petitprince.github.io/pyxpose-demo/gallery.html [7]: https://slides.com/ https://slides.com/ [8]: https://github.com/hakimel/reveal.js https://github.com/hakimel/reveal.js [9]: http://motivate.slides.com/motivateco/deck-8-9#/ http://motivate.slides.com/motivateco/deck-8-9#/ [10]: https://ourworldindata.org/slides/world-poverty/ https://ourworldindata.org/slides/world-poverty/ [11]: http://ianspiro.com/portfolio/ http://ianspiro.com/portfolio/ EDIT: Whoa, paradite mentionned Pageflow. This seems really neat !
jimduk 9y ago
In 2010, before this war, the BBC produced a 5-part documentary series called "Syrian School" -doing a fly-on-the-wall in four schools in Damascus. I only saw half of it, but looking back it is heart breaking. The short answer is, day-to-day life in a Syrian school was very similar and recognisable to e.g. the UK. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUDxznlkm6Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUDxznlkm6Y
123456789abcdef 9y ago
I was lucky enough to have visited Syria in 2009. I spent 3 weeks in Damascus. My impressions at the time: * The pepole were surprisingly westernised * Most younger people spoke great English * Alcohol was available, but limited because *most* people didn't drink (instead people socialised in tea halls) * Cheap oil meant that the taxi to the burger joint cost less than the burger did * The people were extremely friendly * I never felt unsafe * The city was extremely clean * ...however, the air was polluted * Bakdash pistachio ice-cream was AMAZINGLY good https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bakdash_(ice_cream_parlor) * The old city was beautiful and packed with history... * One day we rented a van to see some surrounding areas. The driver was extremely friendly. He showed us around and told us about the history of the places. I still have very fond memories of that desert trip I had never considered visiting there before that, but left thinking I'd love to come back. I guess that's no longer possible and I shudder to think that everything I saw might be destroyed and wonder if the people I met are ok. It really was an incredible place. The signs of the Assad regime were everywhere: posters of Bashar al-Assad were everywhere and armed police on most street corners. Beyond that, it felt very normal (from a westerners perspective) and I never felt like I was in (what the US calls) a "rogue state".
- temp_12345 9y ago
  Yeah, this mirrors my impression. It was unequivocally a controlled society : one simply didn't speak about the regime in anything less than absolutely glowing terms. The threat of the secret police was persistent. As far as the people go, your odds of being hustled in Syria were pretty high (but not any worse than, say, Thailand) - other than that I totally agree wrt the westernization and general pleasantness. I don't think it's really possible to argue the country is in any way better off than it was before the insurrection. I don't want to trivialize the experience of living in a police state, but there are worse things in this world.
  - ido 9y ago
    I don't think it's really possible to argue the country is in any way better off than it was before the insurrection. The question is then, what would have been a better solution? Surely as long as Assad was ruling they were stuck (at best) at a local maximum and would have never transitioned to a free democracy without overthrowing the current government.
AnonNo15 9y ago
A few links from Russian fotoblog: http://www.tema.ru/travel/syria-1/ http://www.tema.ru/travel/syria-1/ http://www.tema.ru/travel/syria-2/ http://www.tema.ru/travel/syria-2/ http://www.tema.ru/travel/syria-3/ http://www.tema.ru/travel/syria-3/
Phil_Latio 9y ago
>Meet 7-year-old Bana, who shared her experience of war on Twitter. It's like the movie Wag the Dog. Sad to exploit a child like this.
- matt4077 9y ago
  She posted on Twitter: > Why would they bomb us and kill innocent people everyday? > - Bana So I doubt that being "exploited" by the evil UN anti-warmongerers is of particular concern to her. I'd even guess she would want to help to stop this, and prevent further atrocities of this magnitude. You've really gotten away with the wrong lessons from Wag the Dog if you consider this exploitative. The problem in WtD was that it was intended to rouse nationalistic furore justifying a military intervention. This is intended to produce goodwill for refugees. And, of course, the problem in Wag the Dog was that the girl was an actress in California, and there was no war. Are you doubting that there is a war in Syria?
  - Phil_Latio 9y ago
    Well I mean this, and it's just the info you find on wikipedia, there is more: > Observers have questioned whether Bana understands the concepts that she tweets about. She is a seven-year-old child who does not speak English. A journalist for The New Yorker noted that her "video statements often have a scripted quality, as if she is being coached by her mother to communicate her thoughts in a language that she is only beginning to learn." > In a now deleted tweet, Bana said it is "better to start 3rd world war instead of letting Russia & assad commit #HolocaustAleppo". > In a separate incident, Bana appeared on Turkish television program Channel TV, where she was asked what her favorite food was, and she replied, "Save the children of Syria". "Bana" is a media campaign. >The problem in WtD was that it was intended to rouse nationalistic furore justifying a military intervention. Yes
    - RandVal30141 9y ago
      ""Bana" is a media campaign." A child.
nray 9y ago
Not Syria but Syrian music, from Aleppo to be precise. I saw the Al-Kindi Ensemble (http://www.alkindi.org/ http://www.alkindi.org/) many years ago, and you can find an album on Spotify. The whole evening was enchanting, and reading up on their story, then seeing footage of Aleppo, I realised how completely gone all that old beauty is. Daesh hates them too, no doubt, but then that's their thing.
peterunold 9y ago
Well it wasn't any more peaceful than the Danish embassy was set on fire i 2006 as a reaction to the Muhammad cartoons.
roadbeats 9y ago
The UN is not objective. They keep repeating the "peaceful protests" thing, but what sort of peaceful protests would aim to take down the president by force ? I'm not an Assad supporter but come on, we saw how that peaceful protests ended up in Libya; France was doing air strike to stop the Libya government to interrupt the protests, people killed their former leader with their bare hands. The only peaceful end during the Arab spring was in Tunisia as their former president escaped in the beginning. A coalition of western countries took over their country to "establish democracy", and now Tunisian people are letting Europe teach them how to be a democracy. It's not free of course. I met bunch of Danish people getting paid really well for working for Tunisian government, as a part of the transition. Syria was a failure for whoever organized Arab spring. Assad gave a CNN interview in the beginning of the war, saying that he'll lead the transition to democracy. But, he'll fight whoever choose violence. Whoever organized those protests already wanted a war, so it didn't matter what Assad said. Please go back to 2011 editions of your favorite western papers and look at the news about Syria, reporters based in London were hysterically telling people about how peaceful protesters in Syria are being killed by a demon, Assad. Same propaganda machine most recently made campaigns about a group called White Helmets, founded by James Le Mesurier, a well known MI6 agent. I traveled three times during the war to the Turkey - Syrian border, volunteered in the refugee camps there. There was not even one UN tent although every year they make big promises such as water pipeline, schools, etc. If you look at UNCHR website, you'll see they are asking money for regions where they don't even report from because they got no volunteers there at all. Later, I traveled to other middle eastern countries around Syria and met chance to meet UN volunteers, told them my observation about their operation. They explained me how they basically count victims and collect money. They bring an NBA or Hollywood star to one of the camps in either Iraq or Lebanon, take some photos and fill the pockets with millions of money that will be spent in 5 star hotels, business class flight tickets, western bars and restaurants in the wealthy neighborhoods of poor middle eastern towns. If you're looking for truth, don't expect these corrupt organizations to tell you, do some research. Who was the US foreign minister during arab spring, who has been backing his/her political campaigns ? If you find this name, all you need is to research that person and find out what he has been organizing "peaceful protests that turn to violent" all over the world, from Ukraina to Egypt, from Libya to Syria.
- 9y ago
OliverJones 9y ago
I lived in Aleppo with my family 1962-1964. My dad was a US consul at the time. It's heartbreaking to see those pictures of that great city trashed. Half a century is a long time in the history of an American city, but the twinking of an eye in the history of Aleppo. The people of the city were incredibly supportive of us -- their guests -- in the aftermath of JFK's murder. Strangers on the street came up to us to express condolences. There was violence back then; the pan-Arab movement of Egyptian president Gamal abdel-Nasser was stirring up nationalist fervor, pro and con. He was frightening and annoying Hafez al-Assad, the father of the present ruler, so government forces were cracking down on Nasser supporters. But nothing like this. A family of Syrian refugees lives in my town, and I'm proud to call them friends. Their eldest daughter is pulling straight As in high school. They get hassled sometimes by 'murican yahoos, which is stupid, but still better than being in the Jordanian refugee camp they came from.
- jimmy2020 9y ago
  i am syrian from aleppo, so proud to hear someone talk nicely about my destroyed city, thanks man.
romanovcode 9y ago
Refugee stats: 3.6 Women and Children 1.6 Men God, I hate stats like these, why is it so hard to break up men, women and children separately to give more insight. Women are not the same as children. Or is google trying to tell us that woman are basically, well, children?
- wtvanhest 9y ago
  I agree that women and children should be reported seperately, but there is a logical reason for the breakdown. Men are much more likely to be warriors historically.
- tyingq 9y ago
  UNHCR has detailed stats, here: http://data.unhcr.org/syrianrefugees/regional.php http://data.unhcr.org/syrianrefugees/regional.php If you draw the line at age 18: Roughly, 27% male adults, 25.5% female adults, 47% children.
  - didibus 9y ago
    I think it was done to appease people. I have an impression most would feel more compassionate knowing that there are little men, since they tend to cause more issues. Though when you split the stats, you see there's actually more men than women refugee.
- CydeWeys 9y ago
  I think it says more about the society that the refugees are fleeing from. Imagine some hypothetical civil war in Florida with millions of refugees -- the American women would not be lumped in with the children.
  - tyingq 9y ago
    In this case, the lumping together of the stats is likely done by westerners. They are trying to dispel the notion that a large amount of the refugees are ISIS fighters in disguise trying to infiltrate the west. The source stats aren't lumped together. That's the journalist's decision.
alexhutcheson 9y ago
Highly recommended read (and less political than the title might imply): https://theringer.com/syria-barack-obama-legacy-853644abdd1b https://theringer.com/syria-barack-obama-legacy-853644abdd1b The author has some great personal stories of what it was like to visit family in Syria under the Assad regime.
peterlk 9y ago
Meta-commentary: This is one of the more fascinating threads I have seen on HN. It seems to parallel many of the problems with political discourse in the world today - maybe it's always been like this, but I'm not old enough to know. I would break down the comments into several types: 1) conspiracy theorists who believe in some secret cult that is unilaterally organizing everything 2) trolls - state sponsored or otherwise pushing an anti-humanitarian cause. They are throwing chaff into the discussion to confuse and disorient and to detract from the real issues. 3) people with experience in these events trying desperately to be heard - these are the people meant to be drowned out by the trolls 4) alarmists - people with relatively little knowledge of the actual goings-on who insist that every minor event is the end of the world (or Syria). I'm not saying that Syria hasn't been decimated, but that it was (and is) a process not an event 5) the rest of everyone who is trying to make heads or tails of things and seems to fall into one of those camps. So, to one of the brighter communities on the internet (that's you HN) I ask: how do we (humanity) convey a full, factual picture to one another so that we may use those facts in conjunction with our values to agree or disagree with one another?
- punkrex 9y ago
  Honestly to explain the nuance of the situation would take too long and isn't super easy to reduce to right and wrong. The background required to understand how syria came to be is not something that can be sufficiently and succinctly explained in a comment thread. Attempts to simplify it run into the exact issues you've noticed above. You're bias comes into play which conflicts with various other peoples PoV, and it all devolves into a shouting match. Also the pipeline/Syke-Picot people will interject themselves into any conversation about the middle east because "this one simple event explains everything" is appealing to a ton of folks.
  - knz 9y ago
    > Also the pipeline/Syke-Picot people will interject themselves into any conversation about the middle east because "this one simple event explains everything" is appealing to a ton of folks. Do the "Sykes-Picot people" attribute everything to that agreement or just view it as a logical starting point for many of the current political problems seen in the Middle East that can not be attributed to other factors (geography, sectarian conflict, control of natural resources, migrant populations that defy modern borders, a history of historical conflicts/slavery, and/or pressure from environmental, political, and cultural changes)? Sykes-Picot isn't exactly a fringe internet theory.... any textbook on the modern Middle East is going to devote substantial time to it.
kenver 9y ago
I visited for a couple of months just before the war. Such an amazing country with beautiful ancient cities. Here are some photos I posted a while ago from a similar thread: http://imgur.com/a/gkqlj#0 http://imgur.com/a/gkqlj#0
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
somename1235 9y ago
The funny thing that this site is forbidden in Syria (By Google themselvs). I am currently in Syria, tried opening it, it gave me 403 response (As all sites based on Google cloud services do)
bArray 9y ago
Would love to read this, but no scrollbar. I don't like websites dictating to me how I should consume content.
- oliv__ 9y ago
  Not the time...
mattfrasernz 9y ago
I covered what it was like growing up in Syria before the war with fellow software developer Nada in my podcast if you'd like an in depth answer from an actual Syrian: https://mattfraser.co.nz/2017/04/08/s1e1-syrian-woman-nada/ https://mattfraser.co.nz/2017/04/08/s1e1-syrian-woman-nada/
- pdm55 9y ago
  Thanks for this. It's always great to hear personal experiences. I read an interview of a female architect still living in Syria. If anyone has a source, I would appreciate it. If I recall correctly, she said what follows. I hope I am not putting words into her mouth. She had been urged to get out of the country. She chose to stay as she wanted to be involved in rebuilding her city. She criticised those who wanted to go back to what it was like before the uprising. She said that all was not nice in the past. She pointed to the corruption in the exam system. She pointed to the fact that people could not travel freely throughout the city, as different parts of the city were controlled by different factions.
easilyBored 9y ago
For the record: I don't think that Mid-East is ready for democracy yet (the majority wouldn't support basic human rights IMO) so the biggest mistake was for the "West" to support the Arab Spring. Yeah, those dictators were bad, but they were predictably bad. Nature abhors vacuum and radical Islam is filling in. P.S. I don't care about down votes.
- mattfrasernz 9y ago
  Iran had democracy in 1953. The democratically elected prime minister was overthrown in a coup that was orchestrated by the CIA in order to protect the profits of BP. This isn't a conspiracy, this information has since been declassified. Look it up on Wikipedia. If there's any truth to your statement that the middle east "can't handle democracy" it's in no small part due to our interference.
  - easilyBored 9y ago
    Name one Mid-east democracy right now that "we" would want to live in /where basic human rights are protected 1 1. Minus Israel....not that it fits my description.
    - losteric 9y ago
      So what? 1764 America was a subjugated colony of a monarch, I'd hate to live there. 1863 America was embroiled in Civil War, I'd hate to live there. 2017 America? Democratic global superpower, lots of room for improvement but I still love living here. What about Germany? 1944 Germany was a fascist racist shithole. 2017 Germany is one of the leaders of the free world. We don't control the past... shit happened, get over it. We learn, mature, and build the future.
  - MR4D 9y ago
    I think there is a finer point to be made here. For instance, the CIA couldn't care less about BP. Now, MI6 surely did. Rather, the CIA influenced action against Mossadegh because it thought he was a Communist. Whether MI5 convinced the CIA that he was a communist threat is the more critical question. Some have thought that MI5 simply convinced the CIA of such a story to take out their own bogeyman while keeping their hands clean. It certainly wouldn't be the first time. Of course, whether or not he actually was one is less notable than his association and support for those who were, as well as his nationalization of the oilfields (technically not the nationalization of BP, but close enough).
Joeri 9y ago
It's an interesting article, but they really should have stayed away from the fancy navigation. I found it so unusable on my ipad that I gave up halfway through.
guilhas 9y ago
Syria was and still is beautiful and very rich in culture. Just a pro-Assad post Although it is a very complicated conflict, I would argue that most Syrians like Assad and not "just speak good because their afraid of the secret police". Just by looking at the videos [1] [2] which capture refugees voting, we can see genuinely excited people going to vote in someone they always believed. Even mainstream outlets had difficulty to capture otherwise. You can see in several places people talking like few would do of their own presidents. Obviously it was not the perfect country like every other, and there was people dissatisfied. But what the rebels want is not democracy, is Assad out. And Islamic law. [1] Massive turnout for Syrian vote in Lebanon https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vgx6ZmWywM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vgx6ZmWywM [2] Syrians abroad begin casting votes in presidential election https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyD61Q5KVNk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyD61Q5KVNk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXt5MhiPHas https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXt5MhiPHas Syrian to BBC Reporter: "You Are Not Telling the Truth About Syria" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKjsjEJDMUk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKjsjEJDMUk Most Syrians back President Assad, but you'd never know from western media https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/jan/17/syrians-support-assad-western-propaganda https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/jan/17/syrian... Syria: Damascus celebrates as Assad wins re-election https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zufjMn8Jf0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zufjMn8Jf0 Dr. Bashar Hafez al-Assad wins post of President of Syria with sweeping majority of votes at 88.7% https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-e7W_INzbo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-e7W_INzbo Syria Election Celebrations 2014/06/05 إحتفالات سوريا بفوز الرئيس بشار الأسد بالإنتخابات https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsgEJvAMt4s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsgEJvAMt4s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6jMxI16VAg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6jMxI16VAg Video Pro-Assad used mistakenly by anti-Assad https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X18sC1kCoK0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X18sC1kCoK0 Pro Assad Rally - 03a - Aleppo, 19-10-2011 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3f9QB_z-_Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3f9QB_z-_Q Pro Assad Rally Damascus, Syria https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsDP8S3ry1A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsDP8S3ry1A Millions attend pro-Assad rally https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNEFfdTNaqk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNEFfdTNaqk
75dvtwin 9y ago
I dislike intellectually dishonest titles, that try to hide the humanitarian or politically oriented motif. In this instance, much of the material is not about what Syria was like before, but about the horrors of war. And that Syrians are great refugees to have... a) they do not really want to leave Syria and live in first world countries b) they are more educated than Americans... With a strange 'inference and comparasing' " .. 18 in 100 Syrians* have advanced degree vs 11 in 100 Americans ..." *Based on Syrian immigrants living in the US What does it even mean? Syrian refugees have a projected higher contribution to US economy than Americans? Overall, the article should have been in Arabic, English, Spanish and Chinese. The article should have been labeled: "50 great reasons why you should want displaced Syrian refugees to immigrate into your country..."
m0llusk 9y ago
This focuses on the tragedy but is unrealistic about the social reality. Syria has been loaded with sectarian divisions and strife for thousands of years. Many of the clans fighting in this war have been in conflict for very long periods of time already. The quote peace unquote that existed in Syria did so in large part because the leadership had so aggressively murdered its detractors. It is true that much has been lost, but it is false that this is all some kind of strange mystery that was put upon Syria from the outside. Conflicts festered in Syria for a very long time and eventually without adequate solutions bubbled over and initiated this catastrophe.

283 points by iheredia 9y ago

h1d 9y ago

Nice presentation. First time I ever saw a web site use phone's gyrometer to rotate around for 360 view.

BooglyWoo 9y ago
Have you seen hypernom.com for visualizing 4 dimensions?

candiodari 9y ago

I wish there were more definite sources detailing what the actual conflict is about. People are giving all sorts of accounts online and it seems to be divided into a few camps: 1) western and sunni middle eastern press: it's all Assad's (government's) fault. People want democracy. Specifically this is supposed to be a response to violent repression of pro-democracy protests from March 2011. Problem: very hard to believe. The attitude of the government against the people of Syria has not changed, and the "protesters" do not seem very pro-democracy at all. Second problem: the middle eastern press (al Jazeera) is owned by a government that would stand to benefit substantially from the pipeline issue. Even aside from the pipeline, that government is involved in funding the exremists in Syria. 2) shi'a middle eastern press Coordinated Sunni attack against one of the two last multicultural/tolerant middle eastern Countries (the other one being Iran, and while Israel is multicultural/tolerant Iran doesn't see it that way). It's an attack to massacre the last vestiges of tolerance in the middle east. Problem: obviously this is state propaganda. That doesn't mean it's not true, of course, but there are military interests at stake by the same people who own these press. 3) Russian press (there were/are hundreds of thousands of Russians from the Soviet union who lived in Syria) This is a coordinated assault against the last Russian ally on the mediterranean. They note the same as the Shi'a press does (attack on tolerance for non-Sunnis), and also note the pipeline project that would deliver oil from. Problem: of course this too is state propaganda. 4) Catholic information sources (there is/was no shortage of Monasteries in Syria) Well-funded Sunni extremists attacking (and killing) everyone in sight, with no identifiable cause. Ethnic cleansing, including even of Sunni's that don't want to fight for them. They seem to disagree with the notions that the fighters care about either Russian interests, or the pipeline (though the funding parties might think differently) Problem: They're not very willing to come forward with information, and the few times they do they say they really fear retaliation. The ones that come forward are refugees.

netsharc 9y ago
Not that I have followed it that closely, but of course it's not a black vs white conflict, more like several factions wanting to win power/suppress their enemies. I think it started as a demonstration against the corrupt Assad that turned violent when his army started shooting. The "rebels" picked up arms and probably brutally kills pro-government soldiers/citizens, so they are not saints either. Meanwhile ISIS takes advantage of the chaos to try to win control of regions. The Kurds are fighting them because there's probably a Kurdish area in Syria? But Erdogan doesn't like a Kurdish rise, so he's probably quietly looking the other way as European ISIS sympathisers travel via Turkey in and out of Syria. Russia wants Assad to stay in power because he's a puppet, so he's bombing "rebels" and ISIS. We haven't even mentioned Iran and the USA. As this report https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/10/16/world/middleeast/untangling-the-overlapping-conflicts-in-the-syrian-war.html?_r=0 https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/10/16/world/middlee... says, in one side of the conflict USA (at least Obama's USA) is working with Russia, in another side they're backing opposing sides.
- matt4077 9y ago
  Excellent summary. One addition: The Kurdish vs. ISIS conflicts are, or at least were, mostly in northern Iraq, where ISIS started back when Syria was still a stable Dicktatorship, but the Iraqi government was (and still is) weak and hated.
- mafribe 9y ago
  started as a demonstration against the corrupt Assad It's unlikely that this was spontaneous, and most likely the first public result of a planned and well-funded regime-change operation.
  - matt4077 9y ago
    Yeah, never in the history of mankind has anyone protested without being paid by George Soros, right?
    - 9y ago

RandVal30141 9y ago

"I wish there were more definite sources detailing what the actual conflict is about. " The death of Hamza Khateeb[1] comes to mind. Political and civil unrest was already underway, but the open violence against civilians including children sent Syria down a path. The government butchered that child among others caught for demonstrations or showing dissent. "The attitude of the government against the people of Syria has not changed" Laughable commentary in the face of regular chemical weapons attacks by the regime and it's paramilitary forces/Hezbollah allies. This is a government that besieges and pummels civilian areas with indiscriminate weapons until they accept forced displacement under the 'reconciliation' campaign. To say it's attitude has not changed since before the protests is absurd. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Hamza_Ali_Al-Khateeb https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Hamza_Ali_Al-Khateeb

candiodari 9y ago
> The death of Hamza Khateeb Ok, but how do you go from that to islamic state ? And frankly, how does a protest like that get organised in the first place by the locals ? > regular chemical weapons attacks by the regime Maybe I'm misinformed, but I seem to only recall that the government was accused of doing this once. This is neither regular, nor was it the cause of the conflict.
- RandVal30141 9y ago
  "accuse" Not accused, found culpable by OPCW[1] along with ISIS. The chlorine attacks have been on-going, including the siege of Aleppo, on Hama and north Homs, and in the Damascus area. Method of delivery has been air dropped[2] or IRAM type. " And frankly, how does a protest like that get organised in the first place by the locals" I'm hoping this is not a joke. Local coordination committees[3] have long been involved in organizing demonstrations and media exposure. People voted on the weekly theme[4] for Friday protests even. When you see logos of Syrian media on CNN and other outlets it is often bearing the logos of these groups. Yes, locals and organize protests among themselves and others in their nation. [1] https://www.opcw.org/news/article/opcw-executive-council-adopts-decision-regarding-the-opcw-united-nations-joint-investigative-mechanism-reports-about-chemical-weapons-use-in-the-syrian-arab-republic/ https://www.opcw.org/news/article/opcw-executive-council-ado... [2] https://youtu.be/PiDntC_E0SY https://youtu.be/PiDntC_E0SY [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_Coordination_Committees_of_Syria https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_Coordination_Committees_... [4] http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/8641167/Syria-largest-protests-against-President-Bashar-al-Assad-to-date-as-thousands-flood-the-streets.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/8...

Kluny 9y ago

Wow, I'd love to check this out but I got this message: "It looks like you're using an older device or web browser. Please update your browser or visit on a newer device." A bit of an odd thing to see when I'm on the latest version of Chrome on a Mac and it says "In partnership with Google" right under that. What gives?

aaron695 9y ago
Same. Working on my phone, I think it's mobile only?
- madiathomas 9y ago
  It isn't mobile only. I visited it using Chrome Version 58.0.3029.110 (64-bit) on Windows 10. Works fine.
  - raverbashing 9y ago
    Version 57 on Mac. "Older device or Web browser" Edit: updated to 58, still get the message. What a joke Edit2: Worked under FF on Mac
    - madiathomas 9y ago
      Maybe they are sniffing for OS and assume you are using Safari.
      - unicornporn 9y ago
        For me it didn't work in Firefox on macOS, but it worked in latest Chromium. What a mystery.
    - jiri 9y ago
      I am Win10, Chrom 58, same message. Yeah, what a joke.

iamjeff 9y ago

This is totally off topic (and may even be taken to be insensitive considering the plight of the Syrian people), but I had to ask: is there any way that you/anyone/HNer could offer suggestions on how to deploy such a site for a non-developer...are there free/self-hosted themes and/or frameworks whose installation and use is noob-friendly enough to lend themselves well to interactive storytelling...? Any help/pointers would be immensely appreciated.

paradite 9y ago
http://pageflow.io/en/ http://pageflow.io/en/ example of final product: http://multimedia.dw.com/the-mysterious-mass-die-off-of-saiga-antelopes-in-kazakhstan http://multimedia.dw.com/the-mysterious-mass-die-off-of-saig...
PetitPrince 9y ago
From a "I think it's more technical" to "I think it's less technical" order: * This website uses fullPage.js [1], which is a widely used javascript library for such full screen presentation (for instance Apple use it in their Mac Pro promo page [2]). You can get around it's API if you know a little HTML and a little javascript, but it's still a lot of manual work. And the neatier features are locked behind a (totally justified) paywall. * One neat generator I know is Jack Qiao's Expose[3] which he mainly uses in his travel photography website [4]. Check out those sweet cinemagraphs ! Unfortunately it is a command-line program which may be a bit obtuse to non-developer (especially on Windows), and the text placement has to be set manually * Shameless plug: as a side project, I made a clone of Expose in Python [5] (demo [6]) with no video support but explicit Markdown support (so you can embed maps, youtube videos and others ). It's still a command line app, but I'm working on a second version that uses Electron and has a more WYSIWYG approach. It is still very much a side project though. * You could look at some web-based presentation framework. Slid.es [7] is an WYSIWYG builder for the reveal.js library [8]. It's mainly used for Powerpoint-ish presentation (ex. [9][10]), but with a touch of creativity you can do neat thing, like this portfolio [11]. [1]: https://alvarotrigo.com/fullPage/ https://alvarotrigo.com/fullPage/ [2]: https://www.apple.com/mac-pro/ https://www.apple.com/mac-pro/ [3]: https://github.com/Jack000/Expose https://github.com/Jack000/Expose [4]: http://jack.ventures/ http://jack.ventures/ [5]: https://github.com/PetitPrince/pyxpose https://github.com/PetitPrince/pyxpose [6]: http://petitprince.github.io/pyxpose-demo/gallery.html http://petitprince.github.io/pyxpose-demo/gallery.html [7]: https://slides.com/ https://slides.com/ [8]: https://github.com/hakimel/reveal.js https://github.com/hakimel/reveal.js [9]: http://motivate.slides.com/motivateco/deck-8-9#/ http://motivate.slides.com/motivateco/deck-8-9#/ [10]: https://ourworldindata.org/slides/world-poverty/ https://ourworldindata.org/slides/world-poverty/ [11]: http://ianspiro.com/portfolio/ http://ianspiro.com/portfolio/ EDIT: Whoa, paradite mentionned Pageflow. This seems really neat !

jimduk 9y ago

In 2010, before this war, the BBC produced a 5-part documentary series called "Syrian School" -doing a fly-on-the-wall in four schools in Damascus. I only saw half of it, but looking back it is heart breaking. The short answer is, day-to-day life in a Syrian school was very similar and recognisable to e.g. the UK. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUDxznlkm6Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUDxznlkm6Y

123456789abcdef 9y ago

I was lucky enough to have visited Syria in 2009. I spent 3 weeks in Damascus. My impressions at the time: * The pepole were surprisingly westernised * Most younger people spoke great English * Alcohol was available, but limited because *most* people didn't drink (instead people socialised in tea halls) * Cheap oil meant that the taxi to the burger joint cost less than the burger did * The people were extremely friendly * I never felt unsafe * The city was extremely clean * ...however, the air was polluted * Bakdash pistachio ice-cream was AMAZINGLY good https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bakdash_(ice_cream_parlor) * The old city was beautiful and packed with history... * One day we rented a van to see some surrounding areas. The driver was extremely friendly. He showed us around and told us about the history of the places. I still have very fond memories of that desert trip I had never considered visiting there before that, but left thinking I'd love to come back. I guess that's no longer possible and I shudder to think that everything I saw might be destroyed and wonder if the people I met are ok. It really was an incredible place. The signs of the Assad regime were everywhere: posters of Bashar al-Assad were everywhere and armed police on most street corners. Beyond that, it felt very normal (from a westerners perspective) and I never felt like I was in (what the US calls) a "rogue state".

temp_12345 9y ago
Yeah, this mirrors my impression. It was unequivocally a controlled society : one simply didn't speak about the regime in anything less than absolutely glowing terms. The threat of the secret police was persistent. As far as the people go, your odds of being hustled in Syria were pretty high (but not any worse than, say, Thailand) - other than that I totally agree wrt the westernization and general pleasantness. I don't think it's really possible to argue the country is in any way better off than it was before the insurrection. I don't want to trivialize the experience of living in a police state, but there are worse things in this world.
- ido 9y ago
  I don't think it's really possible to argue the country is in any way better off than it was before the insurrection. The question is then, what would have been a better solution? Surely as long as Assad was ruling they were stuck (at best) at a local maximum and would have never transitioned to a free democracy without overthrowing the current government.

AnonNo15 9y ago

A few links from Russian fotoblog: http://www.tema.ru/travel/syria-1/ http://www.tema.ru/travel/syria-1/ http://www.tema.ru/travel/syria-2/ http://www.tema.ru/travel/syria-2/ http://www.tema.ru/travel/syria-3/ http://www.tema.ru/travel/syria-3/

Phil_Latio 9y ago

>Meet 7-year-old Bana, who shared her experience of war on Twitter. It's like the movie Wag the Dog. Sad to exploit a child like this.

matt4077 9y ago
She posted on Twitter: > Why would they bomb us and kill innocent people everyday? > - Bana So I doubt that being "exploited" by the evil UN anti-warmongerers is of particular concern to her. I'd even guess she would want to help to stop this, and prevent further atrocities of this magnitude. You've really gotten away with the wrong lessons from Wag the Dog if you consider this exploitative. The problem in WtD was that it was intended to rouse nationalistic furore justifying a military intervention. This is intended to produce goodwill for refugees. And, of course, the problem in Wag the Dog was that the girl was an actress in California, and there was no war. Are you doubting that there is a war in Syria?
- Phil_Latio 9y ago
  Well I mean this, and it's just the info you find on wikipedia, there is more: > Observers have questioned whether Bana understands the concepts that she tweets about. She is a seven-year-old child who does not speak English. A journalist for The New Yorker noted that her "video statements often have a scripted quality, as if she is being coached by her mother to communicate her thoughts in a language that she is only beginning to learn." > In a now deleted tweet, Bana said it is "better to start 3rd world war instead of letting Russia & assad commit #HolocaustAleppo". > In a separate incident, Bana appeared on Turkish television program Channel TV, where she was asked what her favorite food was, and she replied, "Save the children of Syria". "Bana" is a media campaign. >The problem in WtD was that it was intended to rouse nationalistic furore justifying a military intervention. Yes
  - RandVal30141 9y ago
    ""Bana" is a media campaign." A child.

nray 9y ago

Not Syria but Syrian music, from Aleppo to be precise. I saw the Al-Kindi Ensemble (http://www.alkindi.org/ http://www.alkindi.org/) many years ago, and you can find an album on Spotify. The whole evening was enchanting, and reading up on their story, then seeing footage of Aleppo, I realised how completely gone all that old beauty is. Daesh hates them too, no doubt, but then that's their thing.

peterunold 9y ago

Well it wasn't any more peaceful than the Danish embassy was set on fire i 2006 as a reaction to the Muhammad cartoons.

roadbeats 9y ago

The UN is not objective. They keep repeating the "peaceful protests" thing, but what sort of peaceful protests would aim to take down the president by force ? I'm not an Assad supporter but come on, we saw how that peaceful protests ended up in Libya; France was doing air strike to stop the Libya government to interrupt the protests, people killed their former leader with their bare hands. The only peaceful end during the Arab spring was in Tunisia as their former president escaped in the beginning. A coalition of western countries took over their country to "establish democracy", and now Tunisian people are letting Europe teach them how to be a democracy. It's not free of course. I met bunch of Danish people getting paid really well for working for Tunisian government, as a part of the transition. Syria was a failure for whoever organized Arab spring. Assad gave a CNN interview in the beginning of the war, saying that he'll lead the transition to democracy. But, he'll fight whoever choose violence. Whoever organized those protests already wanted a war, so it didn't matter what Assad said. Please go back to 2011 editions of your favorite western papers and look at the news about Syria, reporters based in London were hysterically telling people about how peaceful protesters in Syria are being killed by a demon, Assad. Same propaganda machine most recently made campaigns about a group called White Helmets, founded by James Le Mesurier, a well known MI6 agent. I traveled three times during the war to the Turkey - Syrian border, volunteered in the refugee camps there. There was not even one UN tent although every year they make big promises such as water pipeline, schools, etc. If you look at UNCHR website, you'll see they are asking money for regions where they don't even report from because they got no volunteers there at all. Later, I traveled to other middle eastern countries around Syria and met chance to meet UN volunteers, told them my observation about their operation. They explained me how they basically count victims and collect money. They bring an NBA or Hollywood star to one of the camps in either Iraq or Lebanon, take some photos and fill the pockets with millions of money that will be spent in 5 star hotels, business class flight tickets, western bars and restaurants in the wealthy neighborhoods of poor middle eastern towns. If you're looking for truth, don't expect these corrupt organizations to tell you, do some research. Who was the US foreign minister during arab spring, who has been backing his/her political campaigns ? If you find this name, all you need is to research that person and find out what he has been organizing "peaceful protests that turn to violent" all over the world, from Ukraina to Egypt, from Libya to Syria.

9y ago

OliverJones 9y ago

I lived in Aleppo with my family 1962-1964. My dad was a US consul at the time. It's heartbreaking to see those pictures of that great city trashed. Half a century is a long time in the history of an American city, but the twinking of an eye in the history of Aleppo. The people of the city were incredibly supportive of us -- their guests -- in the aftermath of JFK's murder. Strangers on the street came up to us to express condolences. There was violence back then; the pan-Arab movement of Egyptian president Gamal abdel-Nasser was stirring up nationalist fervor, pro and con. He was frightening and annoying Hafez al-Assad, the father of the present ruler, so government forces were cracking down on Nasser supporters. But nothing like this. A family of Syrian refugees lives in my town, and I'm proud to call them friends. Their eldest daughter is pulling straight As in high school. They get hassled sometimes by 'murican yahoos, which is stupid, but still better than being in the Jordanian refugee camp they came from.

jimmy2020 9y ago
i am syrian from aleppo, so proud to hear someone talk nicely about my destroyed city, thanks man.

romanovcode 9y ago

Refugee stats: 3.6 Women and Children 1.6 Men God, I hate stats like these, why is it so hard to break up men, women and children separately to give more insight. Women are not the same as children. Or is google trying to tell us that woman are basically, well, children?

wtvanhest 9y ago
I agree that women and children should be reported seperately, but there is a logical reason for the breakdown. Men are much more likely to be warriors historically.
tyingq 9y ago
UNHCR has detailed stats, here: http://data.unhcr.org/syrianrefugees/regional.php http://data.unhcr.org/syrianrefugees/regional.php If you draw the line at age 18: Roughly, 27% male adults, 25.5% female adults, 47% children.
- didibus 9y ago
  I think it was done to appease people. I have an impression most would feel more compassionate knowing that there are little men, since they tend to cause more issues. Though when you split the stats, you see there's actually more men than women refugee.
CydeWeys 9y ago
I think it says more about the society that the refugees are fleeing from. Imagine some hypothetical civil war in Florida with millions of refugees -- the American women would not be lumped in with the children.
- tyingq 9y ago
  In this case, the lumping together of the stats is likely done by westerners. They are trying to dispel the notion that a large amount of the refugees are ISIS fighters in disguise trying to infiltrate the west. The source stats aren't lumped together. That's the journalist's decision.

alexhutcheson 9y ago

Highly recommended read (and less political than the title might imply): https://theringer.com/syria-barack-obama-legacy-853644abdd1b https://theringer.com/syria-barack-obama-legacy-853644abdd1b The author has some great personal stories of what it was like to visit family in Syria under the Assad regime.

peterlk 9y ago

Meta-commentary: This is one of the more fascinating threads I have seen on HN. It seems to parallel many of the problems with political discourse in the world today - maybe it's always been like this, but I'm not old enough to know. I would break down the comments into several types: 1) conspiracy theorists who believe in some secret cult that is unilaterally organizing everything 2) trolls - state sponsored or otherwise pushing an anti-humanitarian cause. They are throwing chaff into the discussion to confuse and disorient and to detract from the real issues. 3) people with experience in these events trying desperately to be heard - these are the people meant to be drowned out by the trolls 4) alarmists - people with relatively little knowledge of the actual goings-on who insist that every minor event is the end of the world (or Syria). I'm not saying that Syria hasn't been decimated, but that it was (and is) a process not an event 5) the rest of everyone who is trying to make heads or tails of things and seems to fall into one of those camps. So, to one of the brighter communities on the internet (that's you HN) I ask: how do we (humanity) convey a full, factual picture to one another so that we may use those facts in conjunction with our values to agree or disagree with one another?

punkrex 9y ago
Honestly to explain the nuance of the situation would take too long and isn't super easy to reduce to right and wrong. The background required to understand how syria came to be is not something that can be sufficiently and succinctly explained in a comment thread. Attempts to simplify it run into the exact issues you've noticed above. You're bias comes into play which conflicts with various other peoples PoV, and it all devolves into a shouting match. Also the pipeline/Syke-Picot people will interject themselves into any conversation about the middle east because "this one simple event explains everything" is appealing to a ton of folks.
- knz 9y ago
  > Also the pipeline/Syke-Picot people will interject themselves into any conversation about the middle east because "this one simple event explains everything" is appealing to a ton of folks. Do the "Sykes-Picot people" attribute everything to that agreement or just view it as a logical starting point for many of the current political problems seen in the Middle East that can not be attributed to other factors (geography, sectarian conflict, control of natural resources, migrant populations that defy modern borders, a history of historical conflicts/slavery, and/or pressure from environmental, political, and cultural changes)? Sykes-Picot isn't exactly a fringe internet theory.... any textbook on the modern Middle East is going to devote substantial time to it.

kenver 9y ago

I visited for a couple of months just before the war. Such an amazing country with beautiful ancient cities. Here are some photos I posted a while ago from a similar thread: http://imgur.com/a/gkqlj#0 http://imgur.com/a/gkqlj#0

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

somename1235 9y ago

The funny thing that this site is forbidden in Syria (By Google themselvs). I am currently in Syria, tried opening it, it gave me 403 response (As all sites based on Google cloud services do)

bArray 9y ago

Would love to read this, but no scrollbar. I don't like websites dictating to me how I should consume content.

oliv__ 9y ago
Not the time...

mattfrasernz 9y ago

I covered what it was like growing up in Syria before the war with fellow software developer Nada in my podcast if you'd like an in depth answer from an actual Syrian: https://mattfraser.co.nz/2017/04/08/s1e1-syrian-woman-nada/ https://mattfraser.co.nz/2017/04/08/s1e1-syrian-woman-nada/

pdm55 9y ago
Thanks for this. It's always great to hear personal experiences. I read an interview of a female architect still living in Syria. If anyone has a source, I would appreciate it. If I recall correctly, she said what follows. I hope I am not putting words into her mouth. She had been urged to get out of the country. She chose to stay as she wanted to be involved in rebuilding her city. She criticised those who wanted to go back to what it was like before the uprising. She said that all was not nice in the past. She pointed to the corruption in the exam system. She pointed to the fact that people could not travel freely throughout the city, as different parts of the city were controlled by different factions.

easilyBored 9y ago

For the record: I don't think that Mid-East is ready for democracy yet (the majority wouldn't support basic human rights IMO) so the biggest mistake was for the "West" to support the Arab Spring. Yeah, those dictators were bad, but they were predictably bad. Nature abhors vacuum and radical Islam is filling in. P.S. I don't care about down votes.

mattfrasernz 9y ago
Iran had democracy in 1953. The democratically elected prime minister was overthrown in a coup that was orchestrated by the CIA in order to protect the profits of BP. This isn't a conspiracy, this information has since been declassified. Look it up on Wikipedia. If there's any truth to your statement that the middle east "can't handle democracy" it's in no small part due to our interference.
- easilyBored 9y ago
  Name one Mid-east democracy right now that "we" would want to live in /where basic human rights are protected 1 1. Minus Israel....not that it fits my description.
  - losteric 9y ago
    So what? 1764 America was a subjugated colony of a monarch, I'd hate to live there. 1863 America was embroiled in Civil War, I'd hate to live there. 2017 America? Democratic global superpower, lots of room for improvement but I still love living here. What about Germany? 1944 Germany was a fascist racist shithole. 2017 Germany is one of the leaders of the free world. We don't control the past... shit happened, get over it. We learn, mature, and build the future.
- MR4D 9y ago
  I think there is a finer point to be made here. For instance, the CIA couldn't care less about BP. Now, MI6 surely did. Rather, the CIA influenced action against Mossadegh because it thought he was a Communist. Whether MI5 convinced the CIA that he was a communist threat is the more critical question. Some have thought that MI5 simply convinced the CIA of such a story to take out their own bogeyman while keeping their hands clean. It certainly wouldn't be the first time. Of course, whether or not he actually was one is less notable than his association and support for those who were, as well as his nationalization of the oilfields (technically not the nationalization of BP, but close enough).

Joeri 9y ago

It's an interesting article, but they really should have stayed away from the fancy navigation. I found it so unusable on my ipad that I gave up halfway through.

guilhas 9y ago

Syria was and still is beautiful and very rich in culture. Just a pro-Assad post Although it is a very complicated conflict, I would argue that most Syrians like Assad and not "just speak good because their afraid of the secret police". Just by looking at the videos [1] [2] which capture refugees voting, we can see genuinely excited people going to vote in someone they always believed. Even mainstream outlets had difficulty to capture otherwise. You can see in several places people talking like few would do of their own presidents. Obviously it was not the perfect country like every other, and there was people dissatisfied. But what the rebels want is not democracy, is Assad out. And Islamic law. [1] Massive turnout for Syrian vote in Lebanon https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vgx6ZmWywM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vgx6ZmWywM [2] Syrians abroad begin casting votes in presidential election https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyD61Q5KVNk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyD61Q5KVNk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXt5MhiPHas https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXt5MhiPHas Syrian to BBC Reporter: "You Are Not Telling the Truth About Syria" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKjsjEJDMUk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKjsjEJDMUk Most Syrians back President Assad, but you'd never know from western media https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/jan/17/syrians-support-assad-western-propaganda https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/jan/17/syrian... Syria: Damascus celebrates as Assad wins re-election https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zufjMn8Jf0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zufjMn8Jf0 Dr. Bashar Hafez al-Assad wins post of President of Syria with sweeping majority of votes at 88.7% https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-e7W_INzbo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-e7W_INzbo Syria Election Celebrations 2014/06/05 إحتفالات سوريا بفوز الرئيس بشار الأسد بالإنتخابات https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsgEJvAMt4s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsgEJvAMt4s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6jMxI16VAg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6jMxI16VAg Video Pro-Assad used mistakenly by anti-Assad https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X18sC1kCoK0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X18sC1kCoK0 Pro Assad Rally - 03a - Aleppo, 19-10-2011 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3f9QB_z-_Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3f9QB_z-_Q Pro Assad Rally Damascus, Syria https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsDP8S3ry1A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsDP8S3ry1A Millions attend pro-Assad rally https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNEFfdTNaqk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNEFfdTNaqk

75dvtwin 9y ago

I dislike intellectually dishonest titles, that try to hide the humanitarian or politically oriented motif. In this instance, much of the material is not about what Syria was like before, but about the horrors of war. And that Syrians are great refugees to have... a) they do not really want to leave Syria and live in first world countries b) they are more educated than Americans... With a strange 'inference and comparasing' " .. 18 in 100 Syrians* have advanced degree vs 11 in 100 Americans ..." *Based on Syrian immigrants living in the US What does it even mean? Syrian refugees have a projected higher contribution to US economy than Americans? Overall, the article should have been in Arabic, English, Spanish and Chinese. The article should have been labeled: "50 great reasons why you should want displaced Syrian refugees to immigrate into your country..."

m0llusk 9y ago

This focuses on the tragedy but is unrealistic about the social reality. Syria has been loaded with sectarian divisions and strife for thousands of years. Many of the clans fighting in this war have been in conflict for very long periods of time already. The quote peace unquote that existed in Syria did so in large part because the leadership had so aggressively murdered its detractors. It is true that much has been lost, but it is false that this is all some kind of strange mystery that was put upon Syria from the outside. Conflicts festered in Syria for a very long time and eventually without adequate solutions bubbled over and initiated this catastrophe.