7 ms·

I don't understand why this is a big deal, people seem to think disabilities (not limited to ADHD nor dyslexia) are barriers. People learn to overcome all sort

I don't understand why this is a big deal, people seem to think disabilities (not limited to ADHD nor dyslexia) are barriers. People learn to overcome all sorts of disabilities all the time. In my opinion, this article shouldn't single out that ADHD and dyslexia as a limitation, in a way you can say the contrary, that it's what made him where he is. I'm sure Steve Jobs wouldn't have been as successful if he didn't have dyslexia.

rtpg 9y ago
This is a common trope in the ADHD community. Namely ADHD makes us more creative. I'm for positive thinking, but I heard about a study that claimed skills like creativity do _not_ go down once you are being treated for your disabilities. I do not know the details of the study, though. Unfortunately this trope has meant that I've met many ADHD people who refuse to do medical treatment because they don't want to lose their gifts. My theory has been that people with ADHD tend to end up having lives with rough social interaction, and you end up living a childhood more prone to "creative" endeavors like reading books or other activities you can do alone. But for those of us with this disorder, getting proper treatment can get rid of a major social barrier almost entirely. I'd recommend at least trying medical treatment and evaluating the effects you feel.
- ouid 9y ago
  Not to knock reading books, but isn't reading exactly the opposite of a creative endeavour?
  - oddlyaromatic 9y ago
    Reading creative fiction requires imagination and the ability to synthesize available information into an entire world. Great fiction gives you details and sequences of events, material from which meaning can be made. But the actual rich experience of being deeply engaged in imaginary worlds takes creative action on the part of the reader. It might not feel this way, but the meaning is not "in" the words. It is created by the reader at ... Uh, run time? And it is different for every reader.
    - skrebbel 9y ago
      Oh come on. Sure, you're not wrong, but reading is still a much less creative endeavour than many other things you could be doing, so the GP's argument holds up fine. > , but the meaning is not "in" the words. It is created by the reader at ... Uh, run time? And it is different for every reader. True, but no reader of a Culture novel is going to create a story about two lovers in present-day Seattle in their minds. It's going to be planets and aliens and megastructures and bad endings for every single reader.
      - oddlyaromatic 9y ago
        GP's argument was that reading is "exactly the opposite of a creative endeavor" ... To me, that does not hold up. I guess I'm saying reading exercises the creative muscles more than not reading- and possibly more than entertainment where you can be more passive, like TV. Language alone can never fill in all the blanks. Reading IS an act of consumption but also one of creation. > no reader of a Culture novel is going to create a story about two lovers in present-day Seattle in their minds. Definitely. The difference between readers at the high level ought to be pretty small, but at the detailed level (how do people look, what is their voice like, how fast are they), stuff it's highly unlikely to really be the same.
- kumaraman 9y ago
  I second this, seeking treatment definitely helps with learning to manage the disability. It seems weird describing it as treatment, I would call it more of a suppressor because once they wear off it comes straight back. One of the best things to deal with ADHD is early recognition as it can cause them to fall behind everyone else. Quickly. It's interesting though, not everyone knows exactly what it means to have ADHD or what it implies. Because of this, it isn't necessarily the best thing to tell your teachers either because they can start treating you differently. So I suppose the process of overcoming ADHD can heavily rely on your parents and how able they are to give you the extra attention and time you need.
- gnicholas 9y ago
  Interesting perspective, and definitely possible that benefits of ADHD do not dissipate with treatments. This CEO attributed some of his leadership strengths to his dyslexia (aversion to email, method of running board and other meetings). If there were a treatment that allowed him to read better, what would happen to these benefits? And perhaps the question isn't so much what would happen to this CEO, who is all grown up and has developed his management style, but rather what would happen to kids with dyslexia who could be treated at a younger age. Would they miss out on benefits that he has developed? If a parent had to choose between enabling their child to read better (which helps with schooling and many jobs) or having the opportunity to develop skills that could help with leadership, how would they choose? There seems to be a cognitive dissonance in the dyslexia community — where parents fiercely advocate for every treatment for their child, and simultaneously also tout the benefits of having dyslexia. If the latter is true, is the former necessary or even desirable?
  - mindentropy 9y ago
    The problem is that people should learn to accept that there are differences in the personalities and it cannot be homogeneous. They should be encouraged to cope or help them in coping.
  - anon182429 9y ago
    I'd like to re-iterate, there are NO benefits to ADHD. It is a medical condition. If I sawed off your arm, you wouldn't say "Oh well it's possible that the benefits of sawing your arm off didn't disappear with treatments." There are no benefits. I'd rather have my freaking arm, just like I'd rather not be ADHD. Trust me, there are _no_ benefits to consistently requiring powerful stimulant drugs to even begin to resemble someone who can keep a simple schedule. This disease destroys peoples' lives. You have been sold a false good by the media, hollywood, and people who write trash articles that describe the "benefits" of things such as ADHD, Aspergers, and Dyslexia.
    - gnicholas 9y ago
      Appreciate your sharing this perspective. Some folks, like @jdormit (on a different thread) indicated an upside in some cases, and an overall net benefit. I wonder if this could just be an issue of magnitude of ADHD? That is, perhaps severe ADHD is more likely to be net negative, whereas mild/moderate ADHD could go either way? I am certainly aware that the media like to tell feel-good stories, and that this is part of the reason for the positive coverage of dyslexia, ADHD, and other conditions.
- misja111 9y ago
  > My theory has been that people with ADHD tend to end up having lives with rough social interaction, and you end up living a childhood more prone to "creative" endeavors like reading books or other activities you can do alone. I know quite a few people with ADHD and they are the opposite, they tend to have trouble reading books, especially thick ones, due to their trouble to focus for longer periods. But they all love social interaction and are very good at it.
  - rtpg 9y ago
    ADHD's primary effect is lowered inhibition. One of the consequences is that when untreated you end up blurting things out instead of just thinking them. It usually leads to some pretty abrasive interactions with people, at least in childhood. You end up just kind of pissing off everyone around you. As we reach adulthood though, your "being an adult"-ness can end up helping you out in controlling this. And people around you might be more likely to support you/deal with you (because they too have become more like adults). I think that in adulthood you can find comfortable spaces to be in despite speaking before thinking. But as a child it's harder (at least that's what I experienced and saw with my friends). And the important thing: those getting treatment can get a lot of this suppressed! ADHD medical treatment can almost completely remove this from your system (while you're on the meds, at least)
    - brookside 9y ago
      I agree that blurting things out is related to ADD-like behavior, and what you have described is very close to my history. My experience with treatment, however (which for most is amphetamines) is that I become more verbal and unfiltered while on Adderall, to the point I try to only take it when I am working in a solo setting.
  - spiralx 9y ago
    > I know quite a few people with ADHD and they are the opposite, they tend to have trouble reading books, especially thick ones, due to their trouble to focus for longer periods. But they all love social interaction and are very good at it. For me reading provides a structured, single train of thought that I find soothing compared to my often chaotic thought processes - so much so that if I'm not doing anything else I'll be reading, especially nowadays that a mobile phone is omnipresent.
- PhasmaFelis 9y ago
  > Unfortunately this trope has meant that I've met many ADHD people who refuse to do medical treatment because they don't want to lose their gifts. I'm ADD and autistic; I've seen this in both communities, and I hate it. Recognizing that disabilities need not define you or limit you is a fine thing. Going from there to the notion that disabilities are good and it's the healthy people who have the real problems is devastatingly toxic.
  - edward_rolf 9y ago
    >Going from there to the notion that disabilities are good and it's the healthy people who have the real problems is devastatingly toxic. I see the opposite as toxic. I am very creative but because of my creativity I have trouble, sometimes, keeping focus on things I do not deeply love to think about. I get very bored very fast doing things that does not fundamentaly engage or motivate me. I know this disabilitates me but I also know that the other side of that coin, my ability to dive in to a problem and go deep, for a long time, and after some time resurface with a solution, more than compensate, which shows in my pay-check I guess but also because I am well integrated in the team. Perhaps well-integrated because I know everyone is a little ADHD/schizo/gay/rasist/and so on. We all have a little bit of everything in us. That's why I struggle hard in every team I'm in to make us a well-functioning but heterogenous team. We all need to be our best selves but more imporantly, our selves. If not at work, when?
- mindentropy 9y ago
  I don't understand the medical treatment thing. Why is it so that everything has to be treated? What do you define as ideal? People have different types of personalities and it is necessary in the system. In my opinion it is better to give time to people so that they overcome. We really tend to underestimate the coping capabilities of humans.
  - Klathmon 9y ago
    I struggled with ADHD on my own for years because of this thinking. I lost a job, I lost relationships, I lost time in my life that I could have been doing something productive and instead was flailing around jumping from one thing to another, the whole time feeling more and more depressed as time went on because I must be the only guy that couldn't "figure this out" without needing to be "fixed" by medication. I eventually came around, and it's a night-and-day difference. The medication is only a part of the system that I now have to manage ADHD, but I wouldn't be where I am today without it. Not everything needs to be treated, but when that treatment could very well make almost every single aspect of your life better, to the point of allowing you to actually live a live, why would you encourage people to not take it? This is why we try to classify different types of learning disabilities. There's a difference between "can't focus" and "can't focus to the point of it being a significant detriment to their lives". There's a difference between "I can't sit still" and "I've spent the last 6 hours trying to write a few lines of code but I just can't get my goddamn brain to stop thinking about other stuff for 2 goddamn seconds to even get an on-topic thought in, and now I'm meta-analyzing my own thoughts instead of actually working just making the problem worse and this entire thing is hopeless because if it takes me this long to write a few lines what hope do I ever have of actually completing a program". And that thought process continues for another hour or so interrupted by a "okay just focus" and a few minutes of trying to get back on topic before the spiral starts again until I finally start to make headway only to realize that an hour later I somehow got off-topic again but this time while writing code fixing a bug in some unrelated project, only to then curse myself while dropping that bug only to stare at the fucking screen again not being productive. It's the former which is a personality and the latter which is a disability.
    - 9y ago
- LifeQuestioner 9y ago
  I struggle with meds. I can't visualise things as much - and it fucked up my maths quick thinking. Stops me going as deep 'into the zone' and I can't pattern match. Same with when I'm driving - I can't focus in the front, cars behind, sides... I can get a 3d map of what's going around me by looking at all the mirrors simultaneously (apart from passengers). It's got me out if some bad near crashes: dog on a motorway, flipped car in front... Etc... Because I already had an exit route pattern in my head of most possibilities going wrong. Can't do this on meds for shit. Can pay my bills on time though.
gnicholas 9y ago
> I'm sure Steve Jobs wouldn't have been as successful if he didn't have dyslexia. I've seen this claim several times and have tried to find a source to support it. I would love to know if you are aware of one!
- kumaraman 9y ago
  I probably should have used a better example, I just did a quick google search and saw that. The one I use often is John Britten but no one knows who he is nor was he a CEO.

rtpg 9y ago

This is a common trope in the ADHD community. Namely ADHD makes us more creative. I'm for positive thinking, but I heard about a study that claimed skills like creativity do _not_ go down once you are being treated for your disabilities. I do not know the details of the study, though. Unfortunately this trope has meant that I've met many ADHD people who refuse to do medical treatment because they don't want to lose their gifts. My theory has been that people with ADHD tend to end up having lives with rough social interaction, and you end up living a childhood more prone to "creative" endeavors like reading books or other activities you can do alone. But for those of us with this disorder, getting proper treatment can get rid of a major social barrier almost entirely. I'd recommend at least trying medical treatment and evaluating the effects you feel.

ouid 9y ago
Not to knock reading books, but isn't reading exactly the opposite of a creative endeavour?
- oddlyaromatic 9y ago
  Reading creative fiction requires imagination and the ability to synthesize available information into an entire world. Great fiction gives you details and sequences of events, material from which meaning can be made. But the actual rich experience of being deeply engaged in imaginary worlds takes creative action on the part of the reader. It might not feel this way, but the meaning is not "in" the words. It is created by the reader at ... Uh, run time? And it is different for every reader.
  - skrebbel 9y ago
    Oh come on. Sure, you're not wrong, but reading is still a much less creative endeavour than many other things you could be doing, so the GP's argument holds up fine. > , but the meaning is not "in" the words. It is created by the reader at ... Uh, run time? And it is different for every reader. True, but no reader of a Culture novel is going to create a story about two lovers in present-day Seattle in their minds. It's going to be planets and aliens and megastructures and bad endings for every single reader.
    - oddlyaromatic 9y ago
      GP's argument was that reading is "exactly the opposite of a creative endeavor" ... To me, that does not hold up. I guess I'm saying reading exercises the creative muscles more than not reading- and possibly more than entertainment where you can be more passive, like TV. Language alone can never fill in all the blanks. Reading IS an act of consumption but also one of creation. > no reader of a Culture novel is going to create a story about two lovers in present-day Seattle in their minds. Definitely. The difference between readers at the high level ought to be pretty small, but at the detailed level (how do people look, what is their voice like, how fast are they), stuff it's highly unlikely to really be the same.
kumaraman 9y ago
I second this, seeking treatment definitely helps with learning to manage the disability. It seems weird describing it as treatment, I would call it more of a suppressor because once they wear off it comes straight back. One of the best things to deal with ADHD is early recognition as it can cause them to fall behind everyone else. Quickly. It's interesting though, not everyone knows exactly what it means to have ADHD or what it implies. Because of this, it isn't necessarily the best thing to tell your teachers either because they can start treating you differently. So I suppose the process of overcoming ADHD can heavily rely on your parents and how able they are to give you the extra attention and time you need.
gnicholas 9y ago
Interesting perspective, and definitely possible that benefits of ADHD do not dissipate with treatments. This CEO attributed some of his leadership strengths to his dyslexia (aversion to email, method of running board and other meetings). If there were a treatment that allowed him to read better, what would happen to these benefits? And perhaps the question isn't so much what would happen to this CEO, who is all grown up and has developed his management style, but rather what would happen to kids with dyslexia who could be treated at a younger age. Would they miss out on benefits that he has developed? If a parent had to choose between enabling their child to read better (which helps with schooling and many jobs) or having the opportunity to develop skills that could help with leadership, how would they choose? There seems to be a cognitive dissonance in the dyslexia community — where parents fiercely advocate for every treatment for their child, and simultaneously also tout the benefits of having dyslexia. If the latter is true, is the former necessary or even desirable?
- mindentropy 9y ago
  The problem is that people should learn to accept that there are differences in the personalities and it cannot be homogeneous. They should be encouraged to cope or help them in coping.
- anon182429 9y ago
  I'd like to re-iterate, there are NO benefits to ADHD. It is a medical condition. If I sawed off your arm, you wouldn't say "Oh well it's possible that the benefits of sawing your arm off didn't disappear with treatments." There are no benefits. I'd rather have my freaking arm, just like I'd rather not be ADHD. Trust me, there are _no_ benefits to consistently requiring powerful stimulant drugs to even begin to resemble someone who can keep a simple schedule. This disease destroys peoples' lives. You have been sold a false good by the media, hollywood, and people who write trash articles that describe the "benefits" of things such as ADHD, Aspergers, and Dyslexia.
  - gnicholas 9y ago
    Appreciate your sharing this perspective. Some folks, like @jdormit (on a different thread) indicated an upside in some cases, and an overall net benefit. I wonder if this could just be an issue of magnitude of ADHD? That is, perhaps severe ADHD is more likely to be net negative, whereas mild/moderate ADHD could go either way? I am certainly aware that the media like to tell feel-good stories, and that this is part of the reason for the positive coverage of dyslexia, ADHD, and other conditions.
misja111 9y ago
> My theory has been that people with ADHD tend to end up having lives with rough social interaction, and you end up living a childhood more prone to "creative" endeavors like reading books or other activities you can do alone. I know quite a few people with ADHD and they are the opposite, they tend to have trouble reading books, especially thick ones, due to their trouble to focus for longer periods. But they all love social interaction and are very good at it.
- rtpg 9y ago
  ADHD's primary effect is lowered inhibition. One of the consequences is that when untreated you end up blurting things out instead of just thinking them. It usually leads to some pretty abrasive interactions with people, at least in childhood. You end up just kind of pissing off everyone around you. As we reach adulthood though, your "being an adult"-ness can end up helping you out in controlling this. And people around you might be more likely to support you/deal with you (because they too have become more like adults). I think that in adulthood you can find comfortable spaces to be in despite speaking before thinking. But as a child it's harder (at least that's what I experienced and saw with my friends). And the important thing: those getting treatment can get a lot of this suppressed! ADHD medical treatment can almost completely remove this from your system (while you're on the meds, at least)
  - brookside 9y ago
    I agree that blurting things out is related to ADD-like behavior, and what you have described is very close to my history. My experience with treatment, however (which for most is amphetamines) is that I become more verbal and unfiltered while on Adderall, to the point I try to only take it when I am working in a solo setting.
- spiralx 9y ago
  > I know quite a few people with ADHD and they are the opposite, they tend to have trouble reading books, especially thick ones, due to their trouble to focus for longer periods. But they all love social interaction and are very good at it. For me reading provides a structured, single train of thought that I find soothing compared to my often chaotic thought processes - so much so that if I'm not doing anything else I'll be reading, especially nowadays that a mobile phone is omnipresent.
PhasmaFelis 9y ago
> Unfortunately this trope has meant that I've met many ADHD people who refuse to do medical treatment because they don't want to lose their gifts. I'm ADD and autistic; I've seen this in both communities, and I hate it. Recognizing that disabilities need not define you or limit you is a fine thing. Going from there to the notion that disabilities are good and it's the healthy people who have the real problems is devastatingly toxic.
- edward_rolf 9y ago
  >Going from there to the notion that disabilities are good and it's the healthy people who have the real problems is devastatingly toxic. I see the opposite as toxic. I am very creative but because of my creativity I have trouble, sometimes, keeping focus on things I do not deeply love to think about. I get very bored very fast doing things that does not fundamentaly engage or motivate me. I know this disabilitates me but I also know that the other side of that coin, my ability to dive in to a problem and go deep, for a long time, and after some time resurface with a solution, more than compensate, which shows in my pay-check I guess but also because I am well integrated in the team. Perhaps well-integrated because I know everyone is a little ADHD/schizo/gay/rasist/and so on. We all have a little bit of everything in us. That's why I struggle hard in every team I'm in to make us a well-functioning but heterogenous team. We all need to be our best selves but more imporantly, our selves. If not at work, when?
mindentropy 9y ago
I don't understand the medical treatment thing. Why is it so that everything has to be treated? What do you define as ideal? People have different types of personalities and it is necessary in the system. In my opinion it is better to give time to people so that they overcome. We really tend to underestimate the coping capabilities of humans.
- Klathmon 9y ago
  I struggled with ADHD on my own for years because of this thinking. I lost a job, I lost relationships, I lost time in my life that I could have been doing something productive and instead was flailing around jumping from one thing to another, the whole time feeling more and more depressed as time went on because I must be the only guy that couldn't "figure this out" without needing to be "fixed" by medication. I eventually came around, and it's a night-and-day difference. The medication is only a part of the system that I now have to manage ADHD, but I wouldn't be where I am today without it. Not everything needs to be treated, but when that treatment could very well make almost every single aspect of your life better, to the point of allowing you to actually live a live, why would you encourage people to not take it? This is why we try to classify different types of learning disabilities. There's a difference between "can't focus" and "can't focus to the point of it being a significant detriment to their lives". There's a difference between "I can't sit still" and "I've spent the last 6 hours trying to write a few lines of code but I just can't get my goddamn brain to stop thinking about other stuff for 2 goddamn seconds to even get an on-topic thought in, and now I'm meta-analyzing my own thoughts instead of actually working just making the problem worse and this entire thing is hopeless because if it takes me this long to write a few lines what hope do I ever have of actually completing a program". And that thought process continues for another hour or so interrupted by a "okay just focus" and a few minutes of trying to get back on topic before the spiral starts again until I finally start to make headway only to realize that an hour later I somehow got off-topic again but this time while writing code fixing a bug in some unrelated project, only to then curse myself while dropping that bug only to stare at the fucking screen again not being productive. It's the former which is a personality and the latter which is a disability.
  - 9y ago
LifeQuestioner 9y ago
I struggle with meds. I can't visualise things as much - and it fucked up my maths quick thinking. Stops me going as deep 'into the zone' and I can't pattern match. Same with when I'm driving - I can't focus in the front, cars behind, sides... I can get a 3d map of what's going around me by looking at all the mirrors simultaneously (apart from passengers). It's got me out if some bad near crashes: dog on a motorway, flipped car in front... Etc... Because I already had an exit route pattern in my head of most possibilities going wrong. Can't do this on meds for shit. Can pay my bills on time though.

gnicholas 9y ago

> I'm sure Steve Jobs wouldn't have been as successful if he didn't have dyslexia. I've seen this claim several times and have tried to find a source to support it. I would love to know if you are aware of one!

kumaraman 9y ago
I probably should have used a better example, I just did a quick google search and saw that. The one I use often is John Britten but no one knows who he is nor was he a CEO.