5 ms·

To me, your comment is very much in line with the core tenet of equality which would be that we should strive to treat everyone the same regardless of gender or

To me, your comment is very much in line with the core tenet of equality which would be that we should strive to treat everyone the same regardless of gender or race. As such I am not sure why you are being down voted without people leaving comments.

ue_ 9y ago
I've said it before, but it's notoriously hard to determine which comments will be downvoted and which will be upvoted. I have seen almost the exact same sentiment on HN before (edit: upvoted, floating near the top of the thread), and it is very irritating when you try to contribute only to have someone out of an elite group of 500+ point people click that little button to grey out your comment. Downvoting isn't helpful, it's a dirty little feature implemented to police certain opinions, usually via chilling effect. I upvoted GP.
- wolco 9y ago
  The greyed out comments stand out because they look different. They are usually the comments that get my attention.
- fapjacks 9y ago
  I use a homegrown browser extension I call "Anti-HN B.S." -- which ostensibly stands for "behavior shaping" -- which completely removes my point score and all comment greying from all posts. This has helped me to express opinions here which I know are controversial and suspect will be downvoted. I also find that I am much more thoughtful when approaching comments generally when there is no downvote association.
  - Mz 9y ago
    Is there a link available to this extension where it can be downloaded? (Not that I am in a position to use it personally at the moment, but I would be happy to post it on my blog on the theory that someday I might use it, and, in the mean time, others might find it of interest.)
    - fapjacks 9y ago
      Hello! I've gone ahead and uploaded the source to Github [0]. For anybody that needs instructions: Just clone it somewhere, visit chrome://extensions in your Chrome-based browser, click the "Enable developer mode" checkbox, then "Load unpacked extension" and select the "antihnbs" directory where you cloned it. [0] https://github.com/fapjacks/antihnbs https://github.com/fapjacks/antihnbs
      - Mz 9y ago
        http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/p/hn-tools.html http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/p/hn-tools.html It is now listed down below "Useful HN-related tools."
  - ben_jones 9y ago
    Would you care to open source it? I'd be happy to clean it up a bit in my free time. I often find myself obsessing over small things in communities I view highly, such as HN, and would benefit a lot from it.
    - fapjacks 9y ago
      Hello, please see the sibling comment for a link. No cleaning necessary! It's so small I can't even realistically call it a pile of ugly hacks. It's just a three-line... Non-hack? :)
partycoder 9y ago
I do think however that efforts should be made to make the demographics of STEM graduates more similar to the general population demographics, via programs to motivate people to apply to STEM fields or scholarships, etc. I think at that level (education) intervention is fine. However at the workplace, recruiting processes should have an equality of opportunity. People with the same qualifications, skills, etc. should have equal opportunity. And actually that's the law (EEO).
- sintaxi 9y ago
  Your second paragraph contradicts the first.
  - partycoder 9y ago
    No, it doesn't. The problem with diversity starts very early in the process. By the time graduates apply for jobs there is already a significant lack of diversity. This is why I think it makes sense to focus the diversification effort earlier in the process, in education.
- ben_jones 9y ago
  Should this be the case in all professions and areas of academia. Geology perhaps? Gender studies? Carpentry, flight attendant, congressman and senators? Genuinely curious your thoughts are.
  - fapjacks 9y ago
    Nobody talks about the gender divide in psychology, for instance, and I suspect that's because nobody perceives psychology as being where the money and power is.
wolco 9y ago
I didn't downvote but I am in favor of treating different people differently. If women succeed more when they have someone to emulate this should be encouraged. If men succeed more on their own leave them alone. The last thing we need is the notion that to be fair everyone needs a mentor or no one can have one. An integer not the same as a boolean even if they both have the value of one.
- partycoder 9y ago
  With this point you are entering some sharp edged territory. Let's say you have a team that is majority women, and you have 2 candidates for promotion: a man and a woman. The EEO law says sex should not be a criteria for promotion. However if you promote the women based on sex (e.g: following your idea that women work better with women mentors) this could be considered an EEO violation (sex discrimination). So if you want to abide by the law, you need a promotion criteria that's better than "women work better with women".
  - wolco 9y ago
    You pick the best for the role regardless or the business with suffer. Not sure why women needing a mentor to learn would alter that. The sharp edge raises the question are women more valuable or less than men? Does this change the value. On one hand men don't need mentors to succeed that provides more value. On the other hand women who can act as mentors to other women are more valuable than men. In the end it doesn't matter to the business because both cases provide value in different ways. But it could make a big difference to the individual. Treat everyone differently because everyone has different needs and they learn in different ways.
dang 9y ago
It's because such comments break the HN guidelines by treading into classic flamewar territory with nothing genuinely new to say. This ruins threads and degrades the site. A few people get all excited (perhaps 0.1% because they've never seen this before and 99.9% who just love repeating it) while the rest of us keel over from tedium. Since HN's mandate is to gratify intellectual curiosity, that violates it. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- exstudent2 9y ago
  Ah classic dang! Abusing your mod powers to punish and down talk anyone who questions your narrative. The comment in question is absolutely on topic and relevant. You just don't like it so claim it's against "site policy". It's ridiculous that you don't allow debate on these topics. And yes, I know I'm perma-banned for not being feminist enough for you. I just wanted to point out your systematic pushing of a political agenda to those who dare browse with show dead.
  - dang 9y ago
    https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13110004 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13110004
    - exstudent2 9y ago
      And yet anyone can scroll through your comment history to see who you ban...
- ben_jones 9y ago
  So I went back and read the entire article and I think I agree with what you're saying (after initially disagreeing). His comment did not extend the natural discussion that would follow from reading the article and did play into the common narratives that are too often unproductively rehashed. I still believe that silent down votes do not contribute to intelligent discussions either. If someone can take a minute to read an article, its comments, and down vote, they should also be able to politely explain to the commenter in question how and why that comment may be detracting from the discussion. That way the commenter may defend his position or adapt his behavior to better contribute within the community.

ue_ 9y ago

I've said it before, but it's notoriously hard to determine which comments will be downvoted and which will be upvoted. I have seen almost the exact same sentiment on HN before (edit: upvoted, floating near the top of the thread), and it is very irritating when you try to contribute only to have someone out of an elite group of 500+ point people click that little button to grey out your comment. Downvoting isn't helpful, it's a dirty little feature implemented to police certain opinions, usually via chilling effect. I upvoted GP.

wolco 9y ago
The greyed out comments stand out because they look different. They are usually the comments that get my attention.
fapjacks 9y ago
I use a homegrown browser extension I call "Anti-HN B.S." -- which ostensibly stands for "behavior shaping" -- which completely removes my point score and all comment greying from all posts. This has helped me to express opinions here which I know are controversial and suspect will be downvoted. I also find that I am much more thoughtful when approaching comments generally when there is no downvote association.
- Mz 9y ago
  Is there a link available to this extension where it can be downloaded? (Not that I am in a position to use it personally at the moment, but I would be happy to post it on my blog on the theory that someday I might use it, and, in the mean time, others might find it of interest.)
  - fapjacks 9y ago
    Hello! I've gone ahead and uploaded the source to Github [0]. For anybody that needs instructions: Just clone it somewhere, visit chrome://extensions in your Chrome-based browser, click the "Enable developer mode" checkbox, then "Load unpacked extension" and select the "antihnbs" directory where you cloned it. [0] https://github.com/fapjacks/antihnbs https://github.com/fapjacks/antihnbs
    - Mz 9y ago
      http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/p/hn-tools.html http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/p/hn-tools.html It is now listed down below "Useful HN-related tools."
- ben_jones 9y ago
  Would you care to open source it? I'd be happy to clean it up a bit in my free time. I often find myself obsessing over small things in communities I view highly, such as HN, and would benefit a lot from it.
  - fapjacks 9y ago
    Hello, please see the sibling comment for a link. No cleaning necessary! It's so small I can't even realistically call it a pile of ugly hacks. It's just a three-line... Non-hack? :)

partycoder 9y ago

I do think however that efforts should be made to make the demographics of STEM graduates more similar to the general population demographics, via programs to motivate people to apply to STEM fields or scholarships, etc. I think at that level (education) intervention is fine. However at the workplace, recruiting processes should have an equality of opportunity. People with the same qualifications, skills, etc. should have equal opportunity. And actually that's the law (EEO).

sintaxi 9y ago
Your second paragraph contradicts the first.
- partycoder 9y ago
  No, it doesn't. The problem with diversity starts very early in the process. By the time graduates apply for jobs there is already a significant lack of diversity. This is why I think it makes sense to focus the diversification effort earlier in the process, in education.
ben_jones 9y ago
Should this be the case in all professions and areas of academia. Geology perhaps? Gender studies? Carpentry, flight attendant, congressman and senators? Genuinely curious your thoughts are.
- fapjacks 9y ago
  Nobody talks about the gender divide in psychology, for instance, and I suspect that's because nobody perceives psychology as being where the money and power is.

wolco 9y ago

I didn't downvote but I am in favor of treating different people differently. If women succeed more when they have someone to emulate this should be encouraged. If men succeed more on their own leave them alone. The last thing we need is the notion that to be fair everyone needs a mentor or no one can have one. An integer not the same as a boolean even if they both have the value of one.

partycoder 9y ago
With this point you are entering some sharp edged territory. Let's say you have a team that is majority women, and you have 2 candidates for promotion: a man and a woman. The EEO law says sex should not be a criteria for promotion. However if you promote the women based on sex (e.g: following your idea that women work better with women mentors) this could be considered an EEO violation (sex discrimination). So if you want to abide by the law, you need a promotion criteria that's better than "women work better with women".
- wolco 9y ago
  You pick the best for the role regardless or the business with suffer. Not sure why women needing a mentor to learn would alter that. The sharp edge raises the question are women more valuable or less than men? Does this change the value. On one hand men don't need mentors to succeed that provides more value. On the other hand women who can act as mentors to other women are more valuable than men. In the end it doesn't matter to the business because both cases provide value in different ways. But it could make a big difference to the individual. Treat everyone differently because everyone has different needs and they learn in different ways.

dang 9y ago

It's because such comments break the HN guidelines by treading into classic flamewar territory with nothing genuinely new to say. This ruins threads and degrades the site. A few people get all excited (perhaps 0.1% because they've never seen this before and 99.9% who just love repeating it) while the rest of us keel over from tedium. Since HN's mandate is to gratify intellectual curiosity, that violates it. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

exstudent2 9y ago
Ah classic dang! Abusing your mod powers to punish and down talk anyone who questions your narrative. The comment in question is absolutely on topic and relevant. You just don't like it so claim it's against "site policy". It's ridiculous that you don't allow debate on these topics. And yes, I know I'm perma-banned for not being feminist enough for you. I just wanted to point out your systematic pushing of a political agenda to those who dare browse with show dead.
- dang 9y ago
  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13110004 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13110004
  - exstudent2 9y ago
    And yet anyone can scroll through your comment history to see who you ban...
ben_jones 9y ago
So I went back and read the entire article and I think I agree with what you're saying (after initially disagreeing). His comment did not extend the natural discussion that would follow from reading the article and did play into the common narratives that are too often unproductively rehashed. I still believe that silent down votes do not contribute to intelligent discussions either. If someone can take a minute to read an article, its comments, and down vote, they should also be able to politely explain to the commenter in question how and why that comment may be detracting from the discussion. That way the commenter may defend his position or adapt his behavior to better contribute within the community.