8 ms·

I just hate programs that change patterns that are standard everywhere else. E.g. 99% of software uses control+c and control+v to do copy and pasting, so of cou

I just hate programs that change patterns that are standard everywhere else. E.g. 99% of software uses control+c and control+v to do copy and pasting, so of course software that maps it to something totally different is going to be very frustrating. The same thing with vim using nonstandard way of quitting. Discoverability is another problem. You can have weird keyboard commands, but make it possible to find them without searching stack overflow. I miss when applications had a big bar at the top of all the commands you could do and their keyboard shortcuts. I'm on chrome right now, and copy and paste is hidden away in a menu. And the keyboard shortcut for it isn't mentioned. How do you think people learned the keyboard shortcut in the first place? Or apple phones have a bunch of gestures that are useful, but no one knows about because you can't discover them.

dllthomas 9y ago
Approximately 0% of terminal programs use control-c as copy. Conventions depend on context. "Control-C sends SIGINT" has been a standard for longer than "Control-C means copy".
- Houshalter 9y ago
  I'm well aware of that and the historical reasons that it's the case. I'm just using it as an example of breaking well established patterns that screw new users.
  - boxfire 9y ago
    ^C as copy is an example of breaking well established patterns that screw new users. Its THE canonical example in fact.
    - Houshalter 9y ago
      I really don't care who is responsible or which came first. I'm only pointing out the inconsistency and the problems it causes.
      - wruza 9y ago
        Don't worry, in few years new bindings will be familiar to new people straight from their birth date. Then they will complain about changes and you'll tell them that changes were made long before.
        majewsky 9y ago
        Shortly after the introduction of the first generation of brain-computer interfaces: "Why do I have to think of Ctrl-C to copy text in this program? All the other programs have me think of a banana to copy a selection!"
    - photojosh 9y ago
      ^C is SIGINT. ⌘C is copy. I blame Microsoft.
      - isostatic 9y ago
        Didn't Ms"S use to use CTRL-Ins or similar?
        JdeBP 9y ago
        The name that you want to look up is Common User Access.
        photojosh 9y ago
        Well TIL, thanks! Interesting to know the history. (I still have a few Windows apps we use at work that use these standards; good to know they actually were a standard.)
equalunique 9y ago
just run vimtutor
flukus 9y ago
> The same thing with vim using nonstandard way of quitting. How do you quit man? How do you quit less? 'q' to quit is pretty standard in the TUI world.
- Houshalter 9y ago
  I tried it and typing q does not seem to exit the program. Nothing I tried worked and I had to exit the whole terminal.
  - ecshafer 9y ago
    You have to type :q to quit. : Is the command mode.
    - appleiigs 9y ago
      Missing one step. <esc>:q
      - Houshalter 9y ago
        So intuitive.
      - dllthomas 9y ago
        Actually, the missing step is the <cr> at the end. The <esc> at the beginning is only necessary if you've already got into insert mode. That said, it'll not do any harm.
  - flukus 9y ago
    Well it's not quite that simple because it's more complicated than those tools. Once you are in ex mode ':' though it uses the standard exit key. As for if you stuck in insert mode, this is more akin to when you have text highlighted in a GUI editor, the shortcuts change because you're in a different mode. Remember all editors have modes, vim is just a bit more in your face with them.
- dllthomas 9y ago
kevin_thibedeau 9y ago
Vi predates the Ctrl+C.X.V convention. Shame on all those Windows apps for not using the Esc key properly.
yohui 9y ago
> I'm on chrome right now, and copy and paste is hidden away in a menu. And the keyboard shortcut for it isn't mentioned. How do you think people learned the keyboard shortcut in the first place? Copy and paste are also in the right-click menu, and the keyboard shortcuts are shown there.
Glyptodon 9y ago
I hate VI not defaulting to wasd for movement like every other single piece of software I used growing up... (e.g. Quake, Marathon...) Ha ha ha. (Or should my games have used hjkl)?
- dllthomas 9y ago
  As I recall, both Quake and Marathon defaulted to arrow keys for movement. Half-Life was the first time I encountered WASD out-of-the-box. > (Or should my games have used hjkl)? I still play a game that does...

dllthomas 9y ago

Approximately 0% of terminal programs use control-c as copy. Conventions depend on context. "Control-C sends SIGINT" has been a standard for longer than "Control-C means copy".

Houshalter 9y ago
I'm well aware of that and the historical reasons that it's the case. I'm just using it as an example of breaking well established patterns that screw new users.
- boxfire 9y ago
  ^C as copy is an example of breaking well established patterns that screw new users. Its THE canonical example in fact.
  - Houshalter 9y ago
    I really don't care who is responsible or which came first. I'm only pointing out the inconsistency and the problems it causes.
    - wruza 9y ago
      Don't worry, in few years new bindings will be familiar to new people straight from their birth date. Then they will complain about changes and you'll tell them that changes were made long before.
      - majewsky 9y ago
        Shortly after the introduction of the first generation of brain-computer interfaces: "Why do I have to think of Ctrl-C to copy text in this program? All the other programs have me think of a banana to copy a selection!"
  - photojosh 9y ago
    ^C is SIGINT. ⌘C is copy. I blame Microsoft.
    - isostatic 9y ago
      Didn't Ms"S use to use CTRL-Ins or similar?
      - JdeBP 9y ago
        The name that you want to look up is Common User Access.
        photojosh 9y ago
        Well TIL, thanks! Interesting to know the history. (I still have a few Windows apps we use at work that use these standards; good to know they actually were a standard.)

equalunique 9y ago

just run vimtutor

flukus 9y ago

> The same thing with vim using nonstandard way of quitting. How do you quit man? How do you quit less? 'q' to quit is pretty standard in the TUI world.

Houshalter 9y ago
I tried it and typing q does not seem to exit the program. Nothing I tried worked and I had to exit the whole terminal.
- ecshafer 9y ago
  You have to type :q to quit. : Is the command mode.
  - appleiigs 9y ago
    Missing one step. <esc>:q
    - Houshalter 9y ago
      So intuitive.
    - dllthomas 9y ago
      Actually, the missing step is the <cr> at the end. The <esc> at the beginning is only necessary if you've already got into insert mode. That said, it'll not do any harm.
- flukus 9y ago
  Well it's not quite that simple because it's more complicated than those tools. Once you are in ex mode ':' though it uses the standard exit key. As for if you stuck in insert mode, this is more akin to when you have text highlighted in a GUI editor, the shortcuts change because you're in a different mode. Remember all editors have modes, vim is just a bit more in your face with them.
dllthomas 9y ago

kevin_thibedeau 9y ago

Vi predates the Ctrl+C.X.V convention. Shame on all those Windows apps for not using the Esc key properly.

yohui 9y ago

> I'm on chrome right now, and copy and paste is hidden away in a menu. And the keyboard shortcut for it isn't mentioned. How do you think people learned the keyboard shortcut in the first place? Copy and paste are also in the right-click menu, and the keyboard shortcuts are shown there.

Glyptodon 9y ago

I hate VI not defaulting to wasd for movement like every other single piece of software I used growing up... (e.g. Quake, Marathon...) Ha ha ha. (Or should my games have used hjkl)?

dllthomas 9y ago
As I recall, both Quake and Marathon defaulted to arrow keys for movement. Half-Life was the first time I encountered WASD out-of-the-box. > (Or should my games have used hjkl)? I still play a game that does...