4 ms·

I think the problem is not that Ford can't make electric cars, but that Ford struggles to make good or competitive electric cars. Chevy, as a counterpoint, is

I think the problem is not that Ford can't make electric cars, but that Ford struggles to make good or competitive electric cars. Chevy, as a counterpoint, is also an American / Detroit-based automaker that also plays it safe with most of their lineup. But Chevy has still invested heavily in modern renewable/efficient vehicles too (Volt and Bolt). Ford has nothing to offer that is competitive with these modern vehicles -- Ford's Hybrids/EVs are basically just minimum compliance cars. Even ignoring all of Tesla, Ford's current 2017 lineup still struggles a bit to compete with the original Chevy Volt, a six year old car first released back in 2011.

DigitalJack 9y ago
Ford will just wait for Mazda to offer an electric package and use that.
- praneshp 9y ago
  I don't think they own part of Mazda anymore, for the past couple of years or so.
  - MrRadar 9y ago
    Not only that, but Mazda itself has been resource-starved enough that they don't have a viable electric car program either. They've pretty much put all their eggs in the "Skyactiv" ICE basket (which, to be fair, has paid off for them fairly well up to this point).
  - DigitalJack 9y ago
    Whether or not they own part of Mazda, nearly all Ford engines are made by Mazda. I think the only exception is the Triton.
maxerickson 9y ago
I wonder how much of the drivetrain technology in the Bolt is owned by LG. If most of it is stuff that can be licensed to automakers other than GM, then GM doesn't have much of a lead.
- greglindahl 9y ago
  Yeah, odd that GM was boasting about how much research money and time that they sank into the Volt and Bolt drive train and batterypack, and then turned around and "collaborated" with LG for the Bolt drivetrain and battery pack. Who owns the IP?
  - maxsilver 9y ago
    Is that odd? LG made the Volt battery pack too. The Volt, Bolt, and even the old Spark EV battery packs are all made by LG Chem in Holland Michigan, just a few hours away from the Volt assembly line in Detroit. http://www.autonews.com/article/20151214/OEM06/312149992/lg-chem-quietly-surges-in-battery-race http://www.autonews.com/article/20151214/OEM06/312149992/lg-...
stupidhn 9y ago
>I think the problem is not that Ford can't make electric cars, but that Ford struggles to make good or competitive electric cars. And you base that on what exactly? Their EVs are in the pipeline. >that also plays it safe with most of their lineup. As opposed to..who? Who do you consider "living dangerously" in the auto industry? >Ford's current 2017 lineup still struggles a bit to compete with the original Chevy Volt Have you considered that they aren't trying to compete in the market yet? That there have been precisely zero EVs that are being produced profitably? Despite what HN conveys, the EV market is WIDE OPEN. Tesla hasn't won anything. The excitement is forthcoming, not decided.
- sxates 9y ago
  Tesla has 20-30% gross margins on the Model S and X. They're profitable cars (though the company is not, due to heavy capital investments). Other EVs do seem to be sold at a loss though, because their main purpose isn't to be profitable on their own, but to enable more sales of larger ICE vehicles (by meeting fleet economy standards) that are much more profitable.
- maxsilver 9y ago
  > And you base that on what exactly? Their EVs are in the pipeline. That's exactly what I base that on. Modern EV's have been widely available in the market for over half a decade, and Ford still hasn't shipped a competitive one. Sure, Ford may have a groundbreaking product "in the pipeline". But the landscape as it stands today has them pretty far behind. It seems fair to evaluate a company based on the products it actually has, not the products it claims might happen -- wouldn't you agree? > Have you considered that there have been precisely zero EVs that are being produced profitably? This is simply not true. The Volt, BMW i3, and some Tesla models are all currently profitable vehicles. https://cleantechnica.com/2015/01/28/yes-2016-chevy-volt-will-profitable/ https://cleantechnica.com/2015/01/28/yes-2016-chevy-volt-wil... http://insideevs.com/bmw-i3-to-be-profitable-from-day-one/ http://insideevs.com/bmw-i3-to-be-profitable-from-day-one/ > Despite what HN conveys, the EV market is WIDE OPEN. Tesla hasn't won anything. I never claimed Tesla (or anyone else) has "won" the EV market. Just that you can't win a game you don't play, and Ford (so far) hasn't been playing.
rhino369 9y ago
Are they struggling or are they just not attempting to make good competitive electric cars. There is no networking effect in this market. Chevy might be a decade early into the EV market. Waiting for Tesla, Chevy, etc to pay for industries of scale for battery manufacturing, and then coming in with a cheaper version later isn't necessarily a bad strategy. Every Bolt costs Chevy 7 thousand dollars right now.
- remir 9y ago
  I'd say for most folks in North-America, a car like the Volt makes more sense than a purely electric vehicle like the Bolt. 50 miles range on all-electric power and then the gas generator kicks in. No range anxiety, no long wait time at charging stations either.

DigitalJack 9y ago

Ford will just wait for Mazda to offer an electric package and use that.

praneshp 9y ago
I don't think they own part of Mazda anymore, for the past couple of years or so.
- MrRadar 9y ago
  Not only that, but Mazda itself has been resource-starved enough that they don't have a viable electric car program either. They've pretty much put all their eggs in the "Skyactiv" ICE basket (which, to be fair, has paid off for them fairly well up to this point).
- DigitalJack 9y ago
  Whether or not they own part of Mazda, nearly all Ford engines are made by Mazda. I think the only exception is the Triton.

maxerickson 9y ago

I wonder how much of the drivetrain technology in the Bolt is owned by LG. If most of it is stuff that can be licensed to automakers other than GM, then GM doesn't have much of a lead.

greglindahl 9y ago
Yeah, odd that GM was boasting about how much research money and time that they sank into the Volt and Bolt drive train and batterypack, and then turned around and "collaborated" with LG for the Bolt drivetrain and battery pack. Who owns the IP?
- maxsilver 9y ago
  Is that odd? LG made the Volt battery pack too. The Volt, Bolt, and even the old Spark EV battery packs are all made by LG Chem in Holland Michigan, just a few hours away from the Volt assembly line in Detroit. http://www.autonews.com/article/20151214/OEM06/312149992/lg-chem-quietly-surges-in-battery-race http://www.autonews.com/article/20151214/OEM06/312149992/lg-...

stupidhn 9y ago

>I think the problem is not that Ford can't make electric cars, but that Ford struggles to make good or competitive electric cars. And you base that on what exactly? Their EVs are in the pipeline. >that also plays it safe with most of their lineup. As opposed to..who? Who do you consider "living dangerously" in the auto industry? >Ford's current 2017 lineup still struggles a bit to compete with the original Chevy Volt Have you considered that they aren't trying to compete in the market yet? That there have been precisely zero EVs that are being produced profitably? Despite what HN conveys, the EV market is WIDE OPEN. Tesla hasn't won anything. The excitement is forthcoming, not decided.

sxates 9y ago
Tesla has 20-30% gross margins on the Model S and X. They're profitable cars (though the company is not, due to heavy capital investments). Other EVs do seem to be sold at a loss though, because their main purpose isn't to be profitable on their own, but to enable more sales of larger ICE vehicles (by meeting fleet economy standards) that are much more profitable.
maxsilver 9y ago
> And you base that on what exactly? Their EVs are in the pipeline. That's exactly what I base that on. Modern EV's have been widely available in the market for over half a decade, and Ford still hasn't shipped a competitive one. Sure, Ford may have a groundbreaking product "in the pipeline". But the landscape as it stands today has them pretty far behind. It seems fair to evaluate a company based on the products it actually has, not the products it claims might happen -- wouldn't you agree? > Have you considered that there have been precisely zero EVs that are being produced profitably? This is simply not true. The Volt, BMW i3, and some Tesla models are all currently profitable vehicles. https://cleantechnica.com/2015/01/28/yes-2016-chevy-volt-will-profitable/ https://cleantechnica.com/2015/01/28/yes-2016-chevy-volt-wil... http://insideevs.com/bmw-i3-to-be-profitable-from-day-one/ http://insideevs.com/bmw-i3-to-be-profitable-from-day-one/ > Despite what HN conveys, the EV market is WIDE OPEN. Tesla hasn't won anything. I never claimed Tesla (or anyone else) has "won" the EV market. Just that you can't win a game you don't play, and Ford (so far) hasn't been playing.

rhino369 9y ago

Are they struggling or are they just not attempting to make good competitive electric cars. There is no networking effect in this market. Chevy might be a decade early into the EV market. Waiting for Tesla, Chevy, etc to pay for industries of scale for battery manufacturing, and then coming in with a cheaper version later isn't necessarily a bad strategy. Every Bolt costs Chevy 7 thousand dollars right now.

remir 9y ago
I'd say for most folks in North-America, a car like the Volt makes more sense than a purely electric vehicle like the Bolt. 50 miles range on all-electric power and then the gas generator kicks in. No range anxiety, no long wait time at charging stations either.