6 ms·

Wait why wouldn't Ford (or really any automaker) be able to make electrics cars?

ryanmarsh 9y ago
No reason other than learned ineffectiveness, a common malaise affecting powerful incumbents.
maxsilver 9y ago
I think the problem is not that Ford can't make electric cars, but that Ford struggles to make good or competitive electric cars. Chevy, as a counterpoint, is also an American / Detroit-based automaker that also plays it safe with most of their lineup. But Chevy has still invested heavily in modern renewable/efficient vehicles too (Volt and Bolt). Ford has nothing to offer that is competitive with these modern vehicles -- Ford's Hybrids/EVs are basically just minimum compliance cars. Even ignoring all of Tesla, Ford's current 2017 lineup still struggles a bit to compete with the original Chevy Volt, a six year old car first released back in 2011.
- DigitalJack 9y ago
  Ford will just wait for Mazda to offer an electric package and use that.
  - praneshp 9y ago
    I don't think they own part of Mazda anymore, for the past couple of years or so.
    - MrRadar 9y ago
      Not only that, but Mazda itself has been resource-starved enough that they don't have a viable electric car program either. They've pretty much put all their eggs in the "Skyactiv" ICE basket (which, to be fair, has paid off for them fairly well up to this point).
    - DigitalJack 9y ago
      Whether or not they own part of Mazda, nearly all Ford engines are made by Mazda. I think the only exception is the Triton.
- maxerickson 9y ago
  I wonder how much of the drivetrain technology in the Bolt is owned by LG. If most of it is stuff that can be licensed to automakers other than GM, then GM doesn't have much of a lead.
  - greglindahl 9y ago
    Yeah, odd that GM was boasting about how much research money and time that they sank into the Volt and Bolt drive train and batterypack, and then turned around and "collaborated" with LG for the Bolt drivetrain and battery pack. Who owns the IP?
    - maxsilver 9y ago
      Is that odd? LG made the Volt battery pack too. The Volt, Bolt, and even the old Spark EV battery packs are all made by LG Chem in Holland Michigan, just a few hours away from the Volt assembly line in Detroit. http://www.autonews.com/article/20151214/OEM06/312149992/lg-chem-quietly-surges-in-battery-race http://www.autonews.com/article/20151214/OEM06/312149992/lg-...
- stupidhn 9y ago
  >I think the problem is not that Ford can't make electric cars, but that Ford struggles to make good or competitive electric cars. And you base that on what exactly? Their EVs are in the pipeline. >that also plays it safe with most of their lineup. As opposed to..who? Who do you consider "living dangerously" in the auto industry? >Ford's current 2017 lineup still struggles a bit to compete with the original Chevy Volt Have you considered that they aren't trying to compete in the market yet? That there have been precisely zero EVs that are being produced profitably? Despite what HN conveys, the EV market is WIDE OPEN. Tesla hasn't won anything. The excitement is forthcoming, not decided.
  - sxates 9y ago
    Tesla has 20-30% gross margins on the Model S and X. They're profitable cars (though the company is not, due to heavy capital investments). Other EVs do seem to be sold at a loss though, because their main purpose isn't to be profitable on their own, but to enable more sales of larger ICE vehicles (by meeting fleet economy standards) that are much more profitable.
  - maxsilver 9y ago
    > And you base that on what exactly? Their EVs are in the pipeline. That's exactly what I base that on. Modern EV's have been widely available in the market for over half a decade, and Ford still hasn't shipped a competitive one. Sure, Ford may have a groundbreaking product "in the pipeline". But the landscape as it stands today has them pretty far behind. It seems fair to evaluate a company based on the products it actually has, not the products it claims might happen -- wouldn't you agree? > Have you considered that there have been precisely zero EVs that are being produced profitably? This is simply not true. The Volt, BMW i3, and some Tesla models are all currently profitable vehicles. https://cleantechnica.com/2015/01/28/yes-2016-chevy-volt-will-profitable/ https://cleantechnica.com/2015/01/28/yes-2016-chevy-volt-wil... http://insideevs.com/bmw-i3-to-be-profitable-from-day-one/ http://insideevs.com/bmw-i3-to-be-profitable-from-day-one/ > Despite what HN conveys, the EV market is WIDE OPEN. Tesla hasn't won anything. I never claimed Tesla (or anyone else) has "won" the EV market. Just that you can't win a game you don't play, and Ford (so far) hasn't been playing.
- rhino369 9y ago
  Are they struggling or are they just not attempting to make good competitive electric cars. There is no networking effect in this market. Chevy might be a decade early into the EV market. Waiting for Tesla, Chevy, etc to pay for industries of scale for battery manufacturing, and then coming in with a cheaper version later isn't necessarily a bad strategy. Every Bolt costs Chevy 7 thousand dollars right now.
  - remir 9y ago
    I'd say for most folks in North-America, a car like the Volt makes more sense than a purely electric vehicle like the Bolt. 50 miles range on all-electric power and then the gas generator kicks in. No range anxiety, no long wait time at charging stations either.
justaguyonline 9y ago
With the level of outsourcing and specialization that has gone on, most car manufacturers are evidently not really car manufacturers anymore, but actually internal combustion engine manufacturers and assembly line operators. They just pay other companies to make most of the parts for them and keep the engine in house as their "secret sauce", as a technology that can't easily be copied. Likewise, Tesla isn't really an electric car company or even an electric motor company. Electric motors are something everyone's known how to make for a hundred years and they actually get a lot of their generic car bits like their interiors from the same companies who supply traditional car companies. Tesla's actually a battery pack company (this is why the PowerPack and the SolarCity merger makes sense). It's the knowledge and the experience that went into those packs that keeps other companies from easily copying Tesla. The problem Ford and any traditional automaker faces is somehow pivoting from their current secret sauce, which took them decades and billions of dollars to develop, to a new one in a field that's completely unrelated, where almost nothing they already know applies.
- mandeepj 9y ago
  > Electric motors are something everyone's known how to make for a hundred years We are not talking about toy motors. Before Tesla who knew about making a car motor which can reach 0-60 in 2.27 seconds?
  - zb 9y ago
    Electric motors, unlike internal combustion engines, produce very high torque at low/zero RPMs, and therefore can accelerate very quickly. Electrical engineers have known this literally since the 19th Century. Electric motors in industrial applications routinely do things many times more demanding than anything that will ever be required in a car, and have been doing so since the time of Nikola Tesla.
  - lithos 9y ago
    The most limiting part is energy storage. Even the other difficult problems like dealing with starting current, construction, heat, and lifetime have been solved many ways for a long time.
slededit 9y ago
They can and actually do currently make electric cars. The problem is people are excited about the Chevy Volt, and Bolt not to mention Tesla. I doubt most people even know you can get an electric Focus. This perception takes time and money to curate. They need it in place when electric cars get popular or they will be left behind.
- maxsilver 9y ago
  > I doubt most people even know you can get an electric Focus. And the people who do know, are (mostly) the folks who would never buy one. Who's going to buy the Focus Energi that gets 21 miles on battery, when you can get a faster, nicer Volt that gets 53+ miles on battery. Who's going to buy the Focus Electric that gets 100 miles range, when you can buy a Bolt EV that gets 238 miles of range.
  - maxerickson 9y ago
    It gives them experience with controls and motors. They can take that and buy bigger batteries from LG. Earlier I found this article that breaks down the design of the Bolt: http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1102176_bolt-ev-powertrain-how-did-gm-and-lg-collaborate-on-design-production http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1102176_bolt-ev-powertra... So GM did the motor and controls and such. But you don't need a big battery in a practical vehicle to work that stuff out, you can work on it in an emissions vehicle with a little battery. GM is certainly doing better than Ford in terms of what you can buy right now. I'm not sure that matters much with batteries still costing quite a lot.
    - slededit 9y ago
      It's not an engineering problems it's a public perception problem. When you proudly determine you too are going to join the EV craze what brands will come to mind? Right now it's Tesla and GM that have the mind share. This needs to be fixed before volumes get too large or GM will have an enormous lead.
      - 9y ago

No reason other than learned ineffectiveness, a common malaise affecting powerful incumbents.

I think the problem is not that Ford can't make electric cars, but that Ford struggles to make good or competitive electric cars. Chevy, as a counterpoint, is also an American / Detroit-based automaker that also plays it safe with most of their lineup. But Chevy has still invested heavily in modern renewable/efficient vehicles too (Volt and Bolt). Ford has nothing to offer that is competitive with these modern vehicles -- Ford's Hybrids/EVs are basically just minimum compliance cars. Even ignoring all of Tesla, Ford's current 2017 lineup still struggles a bit to compete with the original Chevy Volt, a six year old car first released back in 2011.

DigitalJack 9y ago
Ford will just wait for Mazda to offer an electric package and use that.
- praneshp 9y ago
  I don't think they own part of Mazda anymore, for the past couple of years or so.
  - MrRadar 9y ago
    Not only that, but Mazda itself has been resource-starved enough that they don't have a viable electric car program either. They've pretty much put all their eggs in the "Skyactiv" ICE basket (which, to be fair, has paid off for them fairly well up to this point).
  - DigitalJack 9y ago
    Whether or not they own part of Mazda, nearly all Ford engines are made by Mazda. I think the only exception is the Triton.
maxerickson 9y ago
I wonder how much of the drivetrain technology in the Bolt is owned by LG. If most of it is stuff that can be licensed to automakers other than GM, then GM doesn't have much of a lead.
- greglindahl 9y ago
  Yeah, odd that GM was boasting about how much research money and time that they sank into the Volt and Bolt drive train and batterypack, and then turned around and "collaborated" with LG for the Bolt drivetrain and battery pack. Who owns the IP?
  - maxsilver 9y ago
    Is that odd? LG made the Volt battery pack too. The Volt, Bolt, and even the old Spark EV battery packs are all made by LG Chem in Holland Michigan, just a few hours away from the Volt assembly line in Detroit. http://www.autonews.com/article/20151214/OEM06/312149992/lg-chem-quietly-surges-in-battery-race http://www.autonews.com/article/20151214/OEM06/312149992/lg-...
stupidhn 9y ago
>I think the problem is not that Ford can't make electric cars, but that Ford struggles to make good or competitive electric cars. And you base that on what exactly? Their EVs are in the pipeline. >that also plays it safe with most of their lineup. As opposed to..who? Who do you consider "living dangerously" in the auto industry? >Ford's current 2017 lineup still struggles a bit to compete with the original Chevy Volt Have you considered that they aren't trying to compete in the market yet? That there have been precisely zero EVs that are being produced profitably? Despite what HN conveys, the EV market is WIDE OPEN. Tesla hasn't won anything. The excitement is forthcoming, not decided.
- sxates 9y ago
  Tesla has 20-30% gross margins on the Model S and X. They're profitable cars (though the company is not, due to heavy capital investments). Other EVs do seem to be sold at a loss though, because their main purpose isn't to be profitable on their own, but to enable more sales of larger ICE vehicles (by meeting fleet economy standards) that are much more profitable.
- maxsilver 9y ago
  > And you base that on what exactly? Their EVs are in the pipeline. That's exactly what I base that on. Modern EV's have been widely available in the market for over half a decade, and Ford still hasn't shipped a competitive one. Sure, Ford may have a groundbreaking product "in the pipeline". But the landscape as it stands today has them pretty far behind. It seems fair to evaluate a company based on the products it actually has, not the products it claims might happen -- wouldn't you agree? > Have you considered that there have been precisely zero EVs that are being produced profitably? This is simply not true. The Volt, BMW i3, and some Tesla models are all currently profitable vehicles. https://cleantechnica.com/2015/01/28/yes-2016-chevy-volt-will-profitable/ https://cleantechnica.com/2015/01/28/yes-2016-chevy-volt-wil... http://insideevs.com/bmw-i3-to-be-profitable-from-day-one/ http://insideevs.com/bmw-i3-to-be-profitable-from-day-one/ > Despite what HN conveys, the EV market is WIDE OPEN. Tesla hasn't won anything. I never claimed Tesla (or anyone else) has "won" the EV market. Just that you can't win a game you don't play, and Ford (so far) hasn't been playing.
rhino369 9y ago
Are they struggling or are they just not attempting to make good competitive electric cars. There is no networking effect in this market. Chevy might be a decade early into the EV market. Waiting for Tesla, Chevy, etc to pay for industries of scale for battery manufacturing, and then coming in with a cheaper version later isn't necessarily a bad strategy. Every Bolt costs Chevy 7 thousand dollars right now.
- remir 9y ago
  I'd say for most folks in North-America, a car like the Volt makes more sense than a purely electric vehicle like the Bolt. 50 miles range on all-electric power and then the gas generator kicks in. No range anxiety, no long wait time at charging stations either.

justaguyonline 9y ago

With the level of outsourcing and specialization that has gone on, most car manufacturers are evidently not really car manufacturers anymore, but actually internal combustion engine manufacturers and assembly line operators. They just pay other companies to make most of the parts for them and keep the engine in house as their "secret sauce", as a technology that can't easily be copied. Likewise, Tesla isn't really an electric car company or even an electric motor company. Electric motors are something everyone's known how to make for a hundred years and they actually get a lot of their generic car bits like their interiors from the same companies who supply traditional car companies. Tesla's actually a battery pack company (this is why the PowerPack and the SolarCity merger makes sense). It's the knowledge and the experience that went into those packs that keeps other companies from easily copying Tesla. The problem Ford and any traditional automaker faces is somehow pivoting from their current secret sauce, which took them decades and billions of dollars to develop, to a new one in a field that's completely unrelated, where almost nothing they already know applies.

mandeepj 9y ago
> Electric motors are something everyone's known how to make for a hundred years We are not talking about toy motors. Before Tesla who knew about making a car motor which can reach 0-60 in 2.27 seconds?
- zb 9y ago
  Electric motors, unlike internal combustion engines, produce very high torque at low/zero RPMs, and therefore can accelerate very quickly. Electrical engineers have known this literally since the 19th Century. Electric motors in industrial applications routinely do things many times more demanding than anything that will ever be required in a car, and have been doing so since the time of Nikola Tesla.
- lithos 9y ago
  The most limiting part is energy storage. Even the other difficult problems like dealing with starting current, construction, heat, and lifetime have been solved many ways for a long time.

slededit 9y ago

They can and actually do currently make electric cars. The problem is people are excited about the Chevy Volt, and Bolt not to mention Tesla. I doubt most people even know you can get an electric Focus. This perception takes time and money to curate. They need it in place when electric cars get popular or they will be left behind.

maxsilver 9y ago
> I doubt most people even know you can get an electric Focus. And the people who do know, are (mostly) the folks who would never buy one. Who's going to buy the Focus Energi that gets 21 miles on battery, when you can get a faster, nicer Volt that gets 53+ miles on battery. Who's going to buy the Focus Electric that gets 100 miles range, when you can buy a Bolt EV that gets 238 miles of range.
- maxerickson 9y ago
  It gives them experience with controls and motors. They can take that and buy bigger batteries from LG. Earlier I found this article that breaks down the design of the Bolt: http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1102176_bolt-ev-powertrain-how-did-gm-and-lg-collaborate-on-design-production http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1102176_bolt-ev-powertra... So GM did the motor and controls and such. But you don't need a big battery in a practical vehicle to work that stuff out, you can work on it in an emissions vehicle with a little battery. GM is certainly doing better than Ford in terms of what you can buy right now. I'm not sure that matters much with batteries still costing quite a lot.
  - slededit 9y ago
    It's not an engineering problems it's a public perception problem. When you proudly determine you too are going to join the EV craze what brands will come to mind? Right now it's Tesla and GM that have the mind share. This needs to be fixed before volumes get too large or GM will have an enormous lead.
    - 9y ago