6 ms·

This is closer to the former than the latter. You aren't erasing the data that's protected under the vaults. You're just temporarily removing the vaults from lo

by rosser 9y ago

This is closer to the former than the latter. You aren't erasing the data that's protected under the vaults. You're just temporarily removing the vaults from local storage, disabling access and obscuring its presence. It's trivial to re-enable that access, so you are hiding, not destroying. Nice mental gymnastics, though. I'm genuinely curious whether the first Federal judge to see this argument laughs or issues a contempt citation first.

an_account 9y ago
Can the border patrol ask you to sign into any online service? Because that's essentially what this is. The data isn't on the computer they are searching, it's on a server thousands of miles away. The data was erased from the device. If they can force you to sign into that service, they could also force you to sign into your bank, github, etc.
- rosser 9y ago
  > Can the border patrol ask you to sign into any online service? If you're a non-citizen attempting to enter the US under a visa waiver program, from certain countries, yes, they can.
  - djsumdog 9y ago
    Then you can just turn around and be deported. Non-citizens don't have many rights at the border. The big questions is for Americans, who also have fewer rights at the border (4th amendment for example). Can they force you to sign into external services at the airport if you're a citizen? Everyone should refuse to do this.
    - late2part 9y ago
      I'm not a lawyer, and I hate having to preface that. But Hell No they can't. They can ask. They can threaten. But once they know you're a US citizen, they either detain you or they let you go (on to customs).
      - daxelrod 9y ago
        They can confiscate your belongings though.
  - fernandotakai 9y ago
    a border officer searched for me on fucking facebook when i was going into the us in march. she said "i just want to know who you are and why you are coming". i don't have a facebook account. she said this was really suspicious. oh and she also found suspicious that i had two us entry stamps within a week of each other and didn't accept my explanation that i had gone through the us to go to england with my wife (even after i pointed to the GB entry stamp). i hate going through the us border control.
    - zerd 9y ago
      Actually they ask for social media accounts when applying for a visa waiver now, e.g. ESTA. I bet they'll mark you as suspicious if you travel without any electronics too, because that has become uncommon.
    - mcv 9y ago
      > she said "i just want to know who you are and why you are coming". Isn't that what passport and visa are for?
mikey_p 9y ago
Seems like it's a tough argument though, I never have all my email on my phone, or all my dropbox files, etc. If I choose to not sync certain GMAP labels to IMAP, does that mean I am 'hiding' them?
- IanCal 9y ago
  Have you kept the data off your phone specifically for the purpose of not letting them see it, intending to sync back up afterwards?
  - mikey_p 9y ago
    What if I don't sync the data back to my phone until I return home? Is that concealing? Is it any different than leaving sensitive items from my wallet (say social security card) at home while I travel?
late2part 9y ago
I don't understand your logic. Facts matter. Either you have the data on your laptop or you don't. If it's been removed, you don't. Yes, they can ask you if you've deleted things, or if you have things elsewhere, but that's not generally what they ask or look for, or the issue at hand.
- rosser 9y ago
  The data is still on the device. Only the password "vaults" have been wiped, obscuring the presence of the data and removing its access. Look, you can twist the words however you want. At the end of the day, if a CBP agent or Federal prosecutor clues to the fact that you're using this functionality, their interpretation is almost certainly going to be "'late2part is hiding something!", and they will bring their (considerable) powers to bear in response to that, in order to figure out what that is. Your indignation about or lack of understanding of that reality aren't going to change it.
  - AlexandrB 9y ago
    The vaults are the data. I'm not sure what data besides the vaults you're referring to that's still on the device. The fact that the data is still on a server somewhere is irrelevant for searching the device. However if they ask to login to your 1Password account that's a different matter.
    - rosser 9y ago
      Does "travel mode" remove all the cookies, local storage, and any other indications that you're a user of the site(s) in the removed vault? Remember: if you're this far down the rabbit hole at immigration, the machine is out of your bag, open, and unlocked. They can take it, while in this state, and image it. If there is evidence that you've been even unintentionally untruthful with the CBP folks, you're screwed. Not only have you lied, but you may have handed over evidence of obstruction of justice/tampering with evidence. Federal charges like that stack up quickly. If they want to fuck with you, they will.
  - fryguy 9y ago

by rosser 9y ago

an_account 9y ago

Can the border patrol ask you to sign into any online service? Because that's essentially what this is. The data isn't on the computer they are searching, it's on a server thousands of miles away. The data was erased from the device. If they can force you to sign into that service, they could also force you to sign into your bank, github, etc.

rosser 9y ago
> Can the border patrol ask you to sign into any online service? If you're a non-citizen attempting to enter the US under a visa waiver program, from certain countries, yes, they can.
- djsumdog 9y ago
  Then you can just turn around and be deported. Non-citizens don't have many rights at the border. The big questions is for Americans, who also have fewer rights at the border (4th amendment for example). Can they force you to sign into external services at the airport if you're a citizen? Everyone should refuse to do this.
  - late2part 9y ago
    I'm not a lawyer, and I hate having to preface that. But Hell No they can't. They can ask. They can threaten. But once they know you're a US citizen, they either detain you or they let you go (on to customs).
    - daxelrod 9y ago
      They can confiscate your belongings though.
- fernandotakai 9y ago
  a border officer searched for me on fucking facebook when i was going into the us in march. she said "i just want to know who you are and why you are coming". i don't have a facebook account. she said this was really suspicious. oh and she also found suspicious that i had two us entry stamps within a week of each other and didn't accept my explanation that i had gone through the us to go to england with my wife (even after i pointed to the GB entry stamp). i hate going through the us border control.
  - zerd 9y ago
    Actually they ask for social media accounts when applying for a visa waiver now, e.g. ESTA. I bet they'll mark you as suspicious if you travel without any electronics too, because that has become uncommon.
  - mcv 9y ago
    > she said "i just want to know who you are and why you are coming". Isn't that what passport and visa are for?

mikey_p 9y ago

Seems like it's a tough argument though, I never have all my email on my phone, or all my dropbox files, etc. If I choose to not sync certain GMAP labels to IMAP, does that mean I am 'hiding' them?

IanCal 9y ago
Have you kept the data off your phone specifically for the purpose of not letting them see it, intending to sync back up afterwards?
- mikey_p 9y ago
  What if I don't sync the data back to my phone until I return home? Is that concealing? Is it any different than leaving sensitive items from my wallet (say social security card) at home while I travel?

late2part 9y ago

I don't understand your logic. Facts matter. Either you have the data on your laptop or you don't. If it's been removed, you don't. Yes, they can ask you if you've deleted things, or if you have things elsewhere, but that's not generally what they ask or look for, or the issue at hand.

rosser 9y ago
The data is still on the device. Only the password "vaults" have been wiped, obscuring the presence of the data and removing its access. Look, you can twist the words however you want. At the end of the day, if a CBP agent or Federal prosecutor clues to the fact that you're using this functionality, their interpretation is almost certainly going to be "'late2part is hiding something!", and they will bring their (considerable) powers to bear in response to that, in order to figure out what that is. Your indignation about or lack of understanding of that reality aren't going to change it.
- AlexandrB 9y ago
  The vaults are the data. I'm not sure what data besides the vaults you're referring to that's still on the device. The fact that the data is still on a server somewhere is irrelevant for searching the device. However if they ask to login to your 1Password account that's a different matter.
  - rosser 9y ago
    Does "travel mode" remove all the cookies, local storage, and any other indications that you're a user of the site(s) in the removed vault? Remember: if you're this far down the rabbit hole at immigration, the machine is out of your bag, open, and unlocked. They can take it, while in this state, and image it. If there is evidence that you've been even unintentionally untruthful with the CBP folks, you're screwed. Not only have you lied, but you may have handed over evidence of obstruction of justice/tampering with evidence. Federal charges like that stack up quickly. If they want to fuck with you, they will.
- fryguy 9y ago