4 ms·

Entering travel mode is literally deleting the data off your computer. It's not concealing anything. I think a federal prosecutor would have a hell of a time ar

Entering travel mode is literally deleting the data off your computer. It's not concealing anything. I think a federal prosecutor would have a hell of a time arguing that people aren't allowed to erase data from their computer before traveling.

Analemma_ 9y ago
In the law, intent matters. You're deleting the data with the intent to hide it from border agents. A federal prosecutor absolutely could argue that, if they wished.
- maxerickson 9y ago
  I'd be entering travel mode with the intent of removing the ability to access the data from the device. I would be surprised if travel mode deleted my data.
- eridius 9y ago
  You're deleting the data because you don't want to travel with that data. You're not hiding it. You literally just don't want to have access to it while you're traveling. In that sense it's no different than, say, leaving a hard drive with all your data behind (plugged into an internet-enabled computer that you can SSH in to and transfer your files back to yourself after you've crossed the border).
  - Analemma_ 9y ago
    Read rosser's comment above. If push came to shove, your clever wordplay would amount to getting into a rules-lawyering contest with Federal prosecutors, and I promise you that is a contest you would lose.
    - eridius 9y ago
      I don't think it's rules lawyering to say that literally not having the data is different than hiding it. There's nothing illegal about choosing to not bring stuff with you when you travel. And as long as the CBP's authority is limited to searching your devices and not forcing you to log into websites, then simply not carrying the data on your device seems perfectly reasonable. Furthermore, I don't think there's anything productive at all about making the argument that federal prosecutors will get you no matter what you do. That's just shutting down the discussion entirely.
      - Analemma_ 9y ago
        > Furthermore, I don't think there's anything productive at all about making the argument that federal prosecutors will get you no matter what you do. That's just shutting down the discussion entirely. Well, it is true that if the government wants to come after you- as in, you specifically- then it is basically true that they will get you no matter what you do. But that's not the point I was making in my previous posts, so let's drop it. The point I was trying to make was that this 1Password feature will not help you, legally, if CBP realizes you're using it and they want to make a fuss. Maybe if you rolled your own PW manager and decided not to sync the incriminating data, you'd have a case. But this feature is literally advertised as "protect your data from unwarranted searches [clearly implying, searches by the government] when you travel". The technical implementation (your "deleting" vs. "not having" distinction) does not matter: the intent is clear.
        vageli 9y ago
        > The point I was trying to make was that this 1Password feature will not help you, legally, if CBP realizes you're using it and they want to make a fuss. Maybe if you rolled your own PW manager and decided not to sync the incriminating data, you'd have a case. But this feature is literally advertised as "protect your data from unwarranted searches [clearly implying, searches by the government] when you travel". The technical implementation (your "deleting" vs. "not having" distinction) does not matter: the intent is clear. We are hinging on the subtle difference between deletion and non action. If I choose not to bring my phone with me to the border, and an agent remarks on the suspiciousness of that fact, if I were to reply, "I didn't bring it because I didn't want to travel with it," did you commit a crime? Even if you were arrested for that statement, dor a prosecutor to convince a jury that you didn't bring data with you because you didn't want it to be inspected at the border vs you didn't bring it because you didn't want it to get stolen/whatever does not seem likely, but that is just my opinion.
        Analemma_ 9y ago
        > If I choose not to bring my phone with me to the border, and an agent remarks on the suspiciousness of that fact, if I were to reply, "I didn't bring it because I didn't want to travel with it," did you commit a crime? Probably not. > We are hinging on the subtle difference between deletion and non action. I agree, and my argument is that "activating Travel Mode" is clearly the former, regardless of its technical implementation, because it requires positive action.
    - ubernostrum 9y ago
      This is starting to head down the road into absurdities, though. If I have a laptop and phone with sensitive work information on them, and simply choose not to take them with me on a trip, would you argue that's a crime? After all, the reason I chose not to take them with me was to "conceal... with the intent to impede" CBP's ability to access all that data. What if someone just refuses to travel to the US as long as policy allows this type of search? Would they need to be extradited for their act of concealment?
- khedoros1 9y ago
  And I could argue that my intent was to protect myself from identity theft, should my device be stolen. It's a reasonable explanation for having deleted the data. I'd also argue that I could've purchased a completely new device immediately prior to travel and brought that along, with the intention of being able to say that the device had never contained information that I was trying to hide. I think that part of the point is that they'd have to prove intent. It's easiest to prove if you refuse to unlock the device, harder to prove if you provide a destrutive password, harder still if you remove your passwords and keys before leaving, and essentially impossible if you have a device that never contained sensitive data in any form.
  - iak8god 9y ago
    > [proving intent is] essentially impossible if you have a device that never contained sensitive data in any form. I'd like to see a short story based on this premise: man is arrested and tried for crossing the border with a brand new phone, having left his usual phone at home. The prosecution argues that since he presumably usually keeps sensitive information on his phone, not copying that data to the phone he was carrying proves his intent to hide information from border police.
    - khedoros1 9y ago
      I think it's a race already, between the story being written and it actually happening to someone.
    - no1youknowz 9y ago
      > he presumably usually keeps sensitive information Wouldn't they have to argue that he was a person of interest for some time now. That they have records of him traveling two and from countries of interest. That he is on a watch list? For the average Joe. I don't think this would get very far. My response would be. "What sensitive information are you looking for?"
      - iak8god 9y ago
        I was proposing a short fictional piece based on this premise -- not sure if you meant to respond to that specifically. In any case, it's speculative fiction: we put the story in a not-too-distant dystopian future where the laws and norms have changed just enough to make this plausible. I think it's more fun too if the protagonist actually doesn't have anything to hide, and is not suspected of any criminal activity before, during, or after his attempted border crossing.
- firebird84 9y ago
  Or literally anyone else in the country to which I'm travelling. Perhaps I feel I'm at an increased likelihood to either lose or have my phone stolen? Saving my passwords from a potential thief (who may or may not have tools to break into the device assuming I secured it) is a reasonable precaution.
- IcyPickle 9y ago
  No, you're deleting it because you don't want to transport it across the border. You're just not bringing it, and border control can't inspect what you don't bring.

Analemma_ 9y ago

In the law, intent matters. You're deleting the data with the intent to hide it from border agents. A federal prosecutor absolutely could argue that, if they wished.

maxerickson 9y ago
I'd be entering travel mode with the intent of removing the ability to access the data from the device. I would be surprised if travel mode deleted my data.
eridius 9y ago
You're deleting the data because you don't want to travel with that data. You're not hiding it. You literally just don't want to have access to it while you're traveling. In that sense it's no different than, say, leaving a hard drive with all your data behind (plugged into an internet-enabled computer that you can SSH in to and transfer your files back to yourself after you've crossed the border).
- Analemma_ 9y ago
  Read rosser's comment above. If push came to shove, your clever wordplay would amount to getting into a rules-lawyering contest with Federal prosecutors, and I promise you that is a contest you would lose.
  - eridius 9y ago
    I don't think it's rules lawyering to say that literally not having the data is different than hiding it. There's nothing illegal about choosing to not bring stuff with you when you travel. And as long as the CBP's authority is limited to searching your devices and not forcing you to log into websites, then simply not carrying the data on your device seems perfectly reasonable. Furthermore, I don't think there's anything productive at all about making the argument that federal prosecutors will get you no matter what you do. That's just shutting down the discussion entirely.
    - Analemma_ 9y ago
      > Furthermore, I don't think there's anything productive at all about making the argument that federal prosecutors will get you no matter what you do. That's just shutting down the discussion entirely. Well, it is true that if the government wants to come after you- as in, you specifically- then it is basically true that they will get you no matter what you do. But that's not the point I was making in my previous posts, so let's drop it. The point I was trying to make was that this 1Password feature will not help you, legally, if CBP realizes you're using it and they want to make a fuss. Maybe if you rolled your own PW manager and decided not to sync the incriminating data, you'd have a case. But this feature is literally advertised as "protect your data from unwarranted searches [clearly implying, searches by the government] when you travel". The technical implementation (your "deleting" vs. "not having" distinction) does not matter: the intent is clear.
      - vageli 9y ago
        > The point I was trying to make was that this 1Password feature will not help you, legally, if CBP realizes you're using it and they want to make a fuss. Maybe if you rolled your own PW manager and decided not to sync the incriminating data, you'd have a case. But this feature is literally advertised as "protect your data from unwarranted searches [clearly implying, searches by the government] when you travel". The technical implementation (your "deleting" vs. "not having" distinction) does not matter: the intent is clear. We are hinging on the subtle difference between deletion and non action. If I choose not to bring my phone with me to the border, and an agent remarks on the suspiciousness of that fact, if I were to reply, "I didn't bring it because I didn't want to travel with it," did you commit a crime? Even if you were arrested for that statement, dor a prosecutor to convince a jury that you didn't bring data with you because you didn't want it to be inspected at the border vs you didn't bring it because you didn't want it to get stolen/whatever does not seem likely, but that is just my opinion.
        Analemma_ 9y ago
        > If I choose not to bring my phone with me to the border, and an agent remarks on the suspiciousness of that fact, if I were to reply, "I didn't bring it because I didn't want to travel with it," did you commit a crime? Probably not. > We are hinging on the subtle difference between deletion and non action. I agree, and my argument is that "activating Travel Mode" is clearly the former, regardless of its technical implementation, because it requires positive action.
  - ubernostrum 9y ago
    This is starting to head down the road into absurdities, though. If I have a laptop and phone with sensitive work information on them, and simply choose not to take them with me on a trip, would you argue that's a crime? After all, the reason I chose not to take them with me was to "conceal... with the intent to impede" CBP's ability to access all that data. What if someone just refuses to travel to the US as long as policy allows this type of search? Would they need to be extradited for their act of concealment?
khedoros1 9y ago
And I could argue that my intent was to protect myself from identity theft, should my device be stolen. It's a reasonable explanation for having deleted the data. I'd also argue that I could've purchased a completely new device immediately prior to travel and brought that along, with the intention of being able to say that the device had never contained information that I was trying to hide. I think that part of the point is that they'd have to prove intent. It's easiest to prove if you refuse to unlock the device, harder to prove if you provide a destrutive password, harder still if you remove your passwords and keys before leaving, and essentially impossible if you have a device that never contained sensitive data in any form.
- iak8god 9y ago
  > [proving intent is] essentially impossible if you have a device that never contained sensitive data in any form. I'd like to see a short story based on this premise: man is arrested and tried for crossing the border with a brand new phone, having left his usual phone at home. The prosecution argues that since he presumably usually keeps sensitive information on his phone, not copying that data to the phone he was carrying proves his intent to hide information from border police.
  - khedoros1 9y ago
    I think it's a race already, between the story being written and it actually happening to someone.
  - no1youknowz 9y ago
    > he presumably usually keeps sensitive information Wouldn't they have to argue that he was a person of interest for some time now. That they have records of him traveling two and from countries of interest. That he is on a watch list? For the average Joe. I don't think this would get very far. My response would be. "What sensitive information are you looking for?"
    - iak8god 9y ago
      I was proposing a short fictional piece based on this premise -- not sure if you meant to respond to that specifically. In any case, it's speculative fiction: we put the story in a not-too-distant dystopian future where the laws and norms have changed just enough to make this plausible. I think it's more fun too if the protagonist actually doesn't have anything to hide, and is not suspected of any criminal activity before, during, or after his attempted border crossing.
firebird84 9y ago
Or literally anyone else in the country to which I'm travelling. Perhaps I feel I'm at an increased likelihood to either lose or have my phone stolen? Saving my passwords from a potential thief (who may or may not have tools to break into the device assuming I secured it) is a reasonable precaution.
IcyPickle 9y ago
No, you're deleting it because you don't want to transport it across the border. You're just not bringing it, and border control can't inspect what you don't bring.