6 ms·

Pardon my ignorance but what is the difference in the UK style keyboard vs the US style keyboard? Is the 4/$ replaced with the 4/£ key? Wouldn't this be problem

Pardon my ignorance but what is the difference in the UK style keyboard vs the US style keyboard? Is the 4/$ replaced with the 4/£ key? Wouldn't this be problematic when programming (for example variable substitution on the shell etc.)?

TheOtherHobbes 9y ago
There are quite a few differences. You can see what they are by looking at the Keyboard prefs in MacOS and loading different localisations. 4/$ still works, but some of the other symbols are in different places.
JimDabell 9y ago
The UK keyboard layout still has $ above 4, but it has £ above 3. In order to get #, you have to hit ⌥3. You can also hit ⌥2 to get €. I think a couple of keys like backslash and backtick are moved around as well.
- type0 9y ago
  > I think a couple of keys like backslash and backtick are moved around as well. Yes. US ISO layout is superior if you need to do any programming (or even just to write some Markdown), too bad it's not used more.
  - niklasrde 9y ago
    Inclined to disagree - depends on your keymap and software you use. If I were to add keyboard shortcuts to my program I'm sure as hell not gonna use a key that I can't get to on my keyboard. On German keyboards it's even 'worse' though. Because ;, [ and ] are used for ä, ö and ü, [ and ] are Strg + ⇧ + 8 and Strg + ⇧ + 9. Same for { and }. (Strg = Ctrl) So any keyboard shortcut involving those and ⇧ or Ctrl is pretty much impossible.
rbanffy 9y ago
Nope. ~` key is next to Z, Enter is vertical. \| is next to "'. The labeling is actually cooler, with images instead of "Shift", "Tab" etc. http://www.thebookyard.com/images/mbutcuk_notp.jpg http://www.thebookyard.com/images/mbutcuk_notp.jpg
- cptskippy 9y ago
  I'm sitting here staring at my US keyboard and scratching my head. All of the Menu shortcuts align perfectly with the UK keyboard's iconography but not the US keyboard which opts for labels. And why do we have a key labeled both enter and return?
  - tcmb 9y ago
    I noticed that in the US almost all signage uses text instead of symbols. For example, writing "No smoking" on a sign, where in Europe you would have a crossed-out cigarette. I don't really understand why this is done, since well-made symbols are also understandable for illiterate people or those not speaking the language.
    - babuskov 9y ago
      In Europe you have a lot of languages and nations mixed. People who design signs know and care about that. In US you have a huge country where everyone speaks the same language. People who design signs don't even know it's a problem that needs to be solved.
      - nwatson 9y ago
        Many signs are written both in English and Spanish all over. Even in rural-ish North Carolina.
    - ianleighton 9y ago
      Explain to me the difference between these three signs: 1. a bicycle on a blue circle, 2. a bicycle on a white circle outlined in red, and 3. a bicycle on a blue square. On the other hand having to read all that in text while you're riding by isn't very reasonable either. Complex signage is only as good as your knowledge of it, which maybe is why passing a driving test in Europe is so much harder; it requires knowledge we just get from being able to read in the US.
corford 9y ago
Non-mac layout is different again. Here's a pic of a Dell laptop I have knocking around: http://imgur.com/a/w5GVC http://imgur.com/a/w5GVC [ could do with a clean! ]
- type0 9y ago
  > [ could do with a clean! ] It's a disgusting view, I'll give you that
  - corford 9y ago
    Yep, didn't come out pretty with the camera flash :)
adambyrtek 9y ago
There are two separate issues that need to be distinguished: 1. Physical keyboard layout (how keys are placed). There are two primary standards: ANSI (mostly US) and ISO (most of Europe). The most notable difference is the shape of the Enter key (L-shaped on an ISO keyboard and straight on an ANSI one). ISO keyboards also have one extra key and a shorter left Shift to make space for it. 2. Logical keyboard layout (how key presses are interpreted). This is what is printed on key caps, but it doesn't have any relation to the actual scan codes being sent. Many languages use their own accented characters (e.g. ąęćłóńżź for Polish) and historical preferences (e.g. QWERTY/QWERTZ/AZERTY), but this is implemented in software. Logical layout can be easily configured in the operating system, and for touch typists it doesn't really matter what is printed on the keys, but differences in physical layout can take some time to get used to. PS. I'm Polish, I live in the UK, and I type on a US mechanical keyboard with ANSI layout :) https://deskthority.net/wiki/ANSI_vs_ISO https://deskthority.net/wiki/ANSI_vs_ISO
- abritinthebay 9y ago
  The ISO layout is pretty superior in many small ways for non-english speakers but that's a really nice description of it in that link there. As a UK->US transplant I really miss the Enter key shape. :(
  - hifigi 9y ago
    I miss this even as an American. The old 8088 computers I grew up with had reverse-L enter keys.
dzhiurgis 9y ago
Having recently (5 months) switched from UK to US layout, I find `/~ location to be more convenient on UK layout. First, it's somehow easier to type ~ on UK layout (no weird finger twists) - helps quicker to get to your home directory when navigating terminal. Second, I use cmd+1/2/3 to switch tabs a lot. Cmd + ` rotates windows. You can imagine it's very easy to mix up 1 with ` and instead of having the tab you want, end up with completely different window. Really breaks my flow often. I do not mind enter key that much. In fact I think US one is better.
- waterhouse 9y ago
  > helps quicker to get to your home directory when navigating terminal. Protip: "cd" with no arguments normally takes you to your home directory. Though if you need to reference something in your homedir using a global path without changing directories, ~ is probably still the fastest way to do it.

TheOtherHobbes 9y ago

There are quite a few differences. You can see what they are by looking at the Keyboard prefs in MacOS and loading different localisations. 4/$ still works, but some of the other symbols are in different places.

JimDabell 9y ago

The UK keyboard layout still has $ above 4, but it has £ above 3. In order to get #, you have to hit ⌥3. You can also hit ⌥2 to get €. I think a couple of keys like backslash and backtick are moved around as well.

type0 9y ago
> I think a couple of keys like backslash and backtick are moved around as well. Yes. US ISO layout is superior if you need to do any programming (or even just to write some Markdown), too bad it's not used more.
- niklasrde 9y ago
  Inclined to disagree - depends on your keymap and software you use. If I were to add keyboard shortcuts to my program I'm sure as hell not gonna use a key that I can't get to on my keyboard. On German keyboards it's even 'worse' though. Because ;, [ and ] are used for ä, ö and ü, [ and ] are Strg + ⇧ + 8 and Strg + ⇧ + 9. Same for { and }. (Strg = Ctrl) So any keyboard shortcut involving those and ⇧ or Ctrl is pretty much impossible.

rbanffy 9y ago

Nope. ~` key is next to Z, Enter is vertical. \| is next to "'. The labeling is actually cooler, with images instead of "Shift", "Tab" etc. http://www.thebookyard.com/images/mbutcuk_notp.jpg http://www.thebookyard.com/images/mbutcuk_notp.jpg

cptskippy 9y ago
I'm sitting here staring at my US keyboard and scratching my head. All of the Menu shortcuts align perfectly with the UK keyboard's iconography but not the US keyboard which opts for labels. And why do we have a key labeled both enter and return?
- tcmb 9y ago
  I noticed that in the US almost all signage uses text instead of symbols. For example, writing "No smoking" on a sign, where in Europe you would have a crossed-out cigarette. I don't really understand why this is done, since well-made symbols are also understandable for illiterate people or those not speaking the language.
  - babuskov 9y ago
    In Europe you have a lot of languages and nations mixed. People who design signs know and care about that. In US you have a huge country where everyone speaks the same language. People who design signs don't even know it's a problem that needs to be solved.
    - nwatson 9y ago
      Many signs are written both in English and Spanish all over. Even in rural-ish North Carolina.
  - ianleighton 9y ago
    Explain to me the difference between these three signs: 1. a bicycle on a blue circle, 2. a bicycle on a white circle outlined in red, and 3. a bicycle on a blue square. On the other hand having to read all that in text while you're riding by isn't very reasonable either. Complex signage is only as good as your knowledge of it, which maybe is why passing a driving test in Europe is so much harder; it requires knowledge we just get from being able to read in the US.

corford 9y ago

Non-mac layout is different again. Here's a pic of a Dell laptop I have knocking around: http://imgur.com/a/w5GVC http://imgur.com/a/w5GVC [ could do with a clean! ]

type0 9y ago
> [ could do with a clean! ] It's a disgusting view, I'll give you that
- corford 9y ago
  Yep, didn't come out pretty with the camera flash :)

adambyrtek 9y ago

There are two separate issues that need to be distinguished: 1. Physical keyboard layout (how keys are placed). There are two primary standards: ANSI (mostly US) and ISO (most of Europe). The most notable difference is the shape of the Enter key (L-shaped on an ISO keyboard and straight on an ANSI one). ISO keyboards also have one extra key and a shorter left Shift to make space for it. 2. Logical keyboard layout (how key presses are interpreted). This is what is printed on key caps, but it doesn't have any relation to the actual scan codes being sent. Many languages use their own accented characters (e.g. ąęćłóńżź for Polish) and historical preferences (e.g. QWERTY/QWERTZ/AZERTY), but this is implemented in software. Logical layout can be easily configured in the operating system, and for touch typists it doesn't really matter what is printed on the keys, but differences in physical layout can take some time to get used to. PS. I'm Polish, I live in the UK, and I type on a US mechanical keyboard with ANSI layout :) https://deskthority.net/wiki/ANSI_vs_ISO https://deskthority.net/wiki/ANSI_vs_ISO

abritinthebay 9y ago
The ISO layout is pretty superior in many small ways for non-english speakers but that's a really nice description of it in that link there. As a UK->US transplant I really miss the Enter key shape. :(
- hifigi 9y ago
  I miss this even as an American. The old 8088 computers I grew up with had reverse-L enter keys.

dzhiurgis 9y ago

Having recently (5 months) switched from UK to US layout, I find `/~ location to be more convenient on UK layout. First, it's somehow easier to type ~ on UK layout (no weird finger twists) - helps quicker to get to your home directory when navigating terminal. Second, I use cmd+1/2/3 to switch tabs a lot. Cmd + ` rotates windows. You can imagine it's very easy to mix up 1 with ` and instead of having the tab you want, end up with completely different window. Really breaks my flow often. I do not mind enter key that much. In fact I think US one is better.

waterhouse 9y ago
> helps quicker to get to your home directory when navigating terminal. Protip: "cd" with no arguments normally takes you to your home directory. Though if you need to reference something in your homedir using a global path without changing directories, ~ is probably still the fastest way to do it.