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I think this is a poor argument. If it's the one singular thing that's frustrating this many users, that's a reason to focus on particular on fixing it somehow.

I think this is a poor argument. If it's the one singular thing that's frustrating this many users, that's a reason to focus on particular on fixing it somehow. You also need to take into account that most users encountering this problem are not deliberate vim learners: they ended up in vim by accident. That said, as others have pointed out, the vim developers can't really be blamed here as it's just a very hard problem. There isn't a common convention, and vim already goes above and beyond to try and educate users on how to get out. People ending up on this SO question just seem unwilling to read.

Crito 9y ago
>they ended up in vim by accident. Sounds like a distro problem.
- recursive 9y ago
  I never ended up in vim by accident until I installed git. vim doesn't come with my distro. (windows 10)
- lucideer 9y ago
  Technically a distro problem but since most Linuxes I've used default to nano I'm guessing the most common culprit is the msysgit "distro". macOS is another potential culprit - can't remember the default there.
smacktoward 9y ago
There is a common convention, though, which is: don't use modal interfaces, modal interfaces are bad. The problem vim has is that its UI is entirely organized around modes, which makes the "people are terrible at using modal interfaces" problem a hard one for it to cope with.
- Crito 9y ago
  If you took the modal interface away from vim, you wouldn't have vim anymore. If you don't want a modal interface, don't use vim. You may as well expect Porsche to move the 911's engine to the front.
  - smacktoward 9y ago
    > If you took the modal interface away from vim, you wouldn't have vim anymore. If you don't want a modal interface, don't use vim. The vast majority of people don't use vim, so this "solution" has already been widely adopted. (Which in turn causes people who like vim to periodically wonder why more people don't use it.) The problem comes because there are scenarios where you don't have a choice as to which editor to use; if you're shelling into a server with limited privileges, for instance, vi/vim may be the only even remotely modern editor available. So lots of people find themselves forced to use it, and these are the people for whom the Stack Overflow thread is useful.
    - falcolas 9y ago
      > you don't have a choice as to which editor to use Like... nano? Or pico? All quite broadly available, and easy as dirt to use. You can even use them to work with `visudo`, one of the few times where I could imagine you don't have a choice. Also, if you can edit it remotely over SSH, you can scp it in two directions and use your own favorite editor (assuming that editor doesn't already have something like network editing already built in; most do). If you "don't have a choice", you're not looking hard enough.
    - dotancohen 9y ago
      SSHing into a server implies a basic level of technical competence. The user presumably already knows cd, mv, ls, and family. Why would expecting the user to know a touch of VIM be out of place? That said, any server admin who for whatever reason allows people to SSH in (shared hosting maybe, university, file sharing) should have nano installed. Anything else is just cruel!:wq
      - Gracana 9y ago
        > SSHing into a server implies a basic level of technical competence. They probably learned how to do that in a Stack Overflow thread as well. No competence necessary.
    - disconnected 9y ago
- Kurtz79 9y ago
  Its use of a modal interface is one of the main reasons that, to this day, attract many developers to VIM. People "terrible at using modal interfaces" should just use another editor. The problem might lie in other applications indirectly launching VIM, taking for granted the users' familiarity with it.
- falcolas 9y ago
  Modal interfaces are bad; yet it's what differentiates Vim from everything else, and thousands of people actively enjoy using Vim. Not to mention your OS is full of modal interfaces. "Why can't I type?" "You have a menu open." "Why can't I type when my cursor is over this window?" "You have a different window as your focus." "Why doesn't space pause this YouTube video?" "Because play wasn't the last button clicked." "WHY ALL CAPS?" "Check your capslock key."
  - smacktoward 9y ago
    > Not to mention your OS is full of modal interfaces. "Why can't I type?" "You have a menu open." "Why can't I type when my cursor is over this window?" "You have a different window as your focus." "Why doesn't space pause this YouTube video?" "Because play wasn't the last button clicked." None of these are examples of modes, at least not as the term is used in the context of user interfaces. (See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mode_(computer_interface)#Definition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mode_(computer_interface)#Defi... for more information.) Modes hijack the entire behavior of the application until the user switches out of them. Windows and menus aren't modal unless they block all other input until the user deals with them. On the other hand your last example, the CAPS LOCK key, actually is modal; once it's engaged, everything you input is going to be capitalized until you disengage it. You will also notice that the CAPS LOCK key is a common source of user problems in tasks where capitalization is significant, like entering passwords; and that for this reason there are frequent calls to remove it from the standard keyboard layout.
    - falcolas 9y ago
      How is having an open menu that blocks input NOT a mode? Using your arrow keys will move menu items, enter will select menu items, letters will also often switch menu items attempting to find a menu item with that letter, and getting out of it requires additional clicks or hitting escape. Ditto the multi window scenario. You have to actively change focus between windows (often between windows in the same application), until which time the application doesn't respond as you expect it to. Another great example: spreadsheets. You're in one of two modes, editing a cell or moving around cells. Often without great feedback of which mode you're in. Modal interfaces are everywhere.
- lbebber 9y ago
  Modal interfaces are not "bad". They're often not intuitive, but intuitiveness is not the be-all and end-all of interfaces. It's a trade-off.

Crito 9y ago

>they ended up in vim by accident. Sounds like a distro problem.

recursive 9y ago
I never ended up in vim by accident until I installed git. vim doesn't come with my distro. (windows 10)
lucideer 9y ago
Technically a distro problem but since most Linuxes I've used default to nano I'm guessing the most common culprit is the msysgit "distro". macOS is another potential culprit - can't remember the default there.

smacktoward 9y ago

There is a common convention, though, which is: don't use modal interfaces, modal interfaces are bad. The problem vim has is that its UI is entirely organized around modes, which makes the "people are terrible at using modal interfaces" problem a hard one for it to cope with.

Crito 9y ago
If you took the modal interface away from vim, you wouldn't have vim anymore. If you don't want a modal interface, don't use vim. You may as well expect Porsche to move the 911's engine to the front.
- smacktoward 9y ago
  > If you took the modal interface away from vim, you wouldn't have vim anymore. If you don't want a modal interface, don't use vim. The vast majority of people don't use vim, so this "solution" has already been widely adopted. (Which in turn causes people who like vim to periodically wonder why more people don't use it.) The problem comes because there are scenarios where you don't have a choice as to which editor to use; if you're shelling into a server with limited privileges, for instance, vi/vim may be the only even remotely modern editor available. So lots of people find themselves forced to use it, and these are the people for whom the Stack Overflow thread is useful.
  - falcolas 9y ago
    > you don't have a choice as to which editor to use Like... nano? Or pico? All quite broadly available, and easy as dirt to use. You can even use them to work with `visudo`, one of the few times where I could imagine you don't have a choice. Also, if you can edit it remotely over SSH, you can scp it in two directions and use your own favorite editor (assuming that editor doesn't already have something like network editing already built in; most do). If you "don't have a choice", you're not looking hard enough.
  - dotancohen 9y ago
    SSHing into a server implies a basic level of technical competence. The user presumably already knows cd, mv, ls, and family. Why would expecting the user to know a touch of VIM be out of place? That said, any server admin who for whatever reason allows people to SSH in (shared hosting maybe, university, file sharing) should have nano installed. Anything else is just cruel!:wq
    - Gracana 9y ago
      > SSHing into a server implies a basic level of technical competence. They probably learned how to do that in a Stack Overflow thread as well. No competence necessary.
  - disconnected 9y ago
Kurtz79 9y ago
Its use of a modal interface is one of the main reasons that, to this day, attract many developers to VIM. People "terrible at using modal interfaces" should just use another editor. The problem might lie in other applications indirectly launching VIM, taking for granted the users' familiarity with it.
falcolas 9y ago
Modal interfaces are bad; yet it's what differentiates Vim from everything else, and thousands of people actively enjoy using Vim. Not to mention your OS is full of modal interfaces. "Why can't I type?" "You have a menu open." "Why can't I type when my cursor is over this window?" "You have a different window as your focus." "Why doesn't space pause this YouTube video?" "Because play wasn't the last button clicked." "WHY ALL CAPS?" "Check your capslock key."
- smacktoward 9y ago
  > Not to mention your OS is full of modal interfaces. "Why can't I type?" "You have a menu open." "Why can't I type when my cursor is over this window?" "You have a different window as your focus." "Why doesn't space pause this YouTube video?" "Because play wasn't the last button clicked." None of these are examples of modes, at least not as the term is used in the context of user interfaces. (See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mode_(computer_interface)#Definition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mode_(computer_interface)#Defi... for more information.) Modes hijack the entire behavior of the application until the user switches out of them. Windows and menus aren't modal unless they block all other input until the user deals with them. On the other hand your last example, the CAPS LOCK key, actually is modal; once it's engaged, everything you input is going to be capitalized until you disengage it. You will also notice that the CAPS LOCK key is a common source of user problems in tasks where capitalization is significant, like entering passwords; and that for this reason there are frequent calls to remove it from the standard keyboard layout.
  - falcolas 9y ago
    How is having an open menu that blocks input NOT a mode? Using your arrow keys will move menu items, enter will select menu items, letters will also often switch menu items attempting to find a menu item with that letter, and getting out of it requires additional clicks or hitting escape. Ditto the multi window scenario. You have to actively change focus between windows (often between windows in the same application), until which time the application doesn't respond as you expect it to. Another great example: spreadsheets. You're in one of two modes, editing a cell or moving around cells. Often without great feedback of which mode you're in. Modal interfaces are everywhere.
lbebber 9y ago
Modal interfaces are not "bad". They're often not intuitive, but intuitiveness is not the be-all and end-all of interfaces. It's a trade-off.