9 ms·

How I Almost Got Acquired By Apple And Then Snubbed

152 points by kanny96 16y ago

andrewljohnson 16y ago
You sound awfully pushy, and can't you just take a hint? I have been not called back by women, customers, partners, and everyone else. They have expressed interest and left me hanging. At first, you be persistent, and you get more dates and more contracts because of it. But you also learn when to take a hint, and Apple gave you several.
- drivebyacct 16y ago
  If a woman said she's interested in you, never calls back, and says SHE will call YOU, you wouldn't have hope and stay interested? I don't understand why this thread seems to be going out of their way to shit on this guy. It's not like Apple said "eh" and didn't respond, they kept saying they'd get back to him and never bothered. It's called leading someone on, it's rude, and I'm startled at the number of excuses that are being made for this guy.
  - carbocation 16y ago
    > If a woman said she's interested in you, never calls back, and says SHE will call YOU, you wouldn't have hope and stay interested? Wait, what? This is the classic way by which someone expresses that they are not interested without saying so directly. Don't call us; we'll call you.
    - zackattack 16y ago
      I disagree. It can often mean what it says it means. But if body language is negative, don't count on a call back.
      - hnote 16y ago
        Are you an Asker or a Guesser? http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2010/may/08/change-life-asker-guesser http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2010/may/08/change-li...
        zackattack 16y ago
        I'm an Asker but I don't know why I was downvoted. Two months ago I saw a woman in a coffee shop and hit on her. I invited her to go out with me and see Taming Your Dragon In 3-D. She declined and said it was lame. But she took my number and said she'd call me and invite me to a beach party some time. I never got a call from her, and even saw her again in the same coffee shop, but didn't bring it up. She called me today to invite me out this weekend to a beach party. My point is that you can never predict these things. If someone is giving you the "polite yes" or the "polite maybe" but is giving you bad vibes via body language, then you can use that to help gauge your interpretation.
    - drivebyacct 16y ago
      That's shitty and I still can't believe people are making excuses for this type of behavior. It's pathetic.
      - drivebyacct 16y ago
        Most pathetic downmodding I've seen on HN. This isn't even passive aggressive, this is just being a shitty human being. Fuck you all. It's really cool that HN is going the reddit route of downmodding comments that they disagree with. Although I don't even think my comments would have been downmodded over there. Because we're all hip and "hackers" at HN we just tolerate and expect people to be shitty to each other in the business world. Real cool guys.
        jrockway 16y ago
        . <-- The world's smallest violin.
        jfarmer 16y ago
        People are downvoting you because your response was so acerbic. This reply isn't helping.
        drivebyacct 16y ago
        No it's not. Point out what was so "acerbic" in my original reply. I've read it twice now and there's nothing out of line in it. The only emotion I injected was "I am startled". Yeah, really `acid in temper or mood`. Especially when * ironically* I was addressing the acerbic comments being pointed at the author for ACTUALLY BELIEVING people when they told him they were interested. Is it opposite day on HN or did I miss a memo?
        jfarmer 16y ago
        I didn't say it was out of line, just acerbic. "shitty" "can't believe" "pathetic" Strong words. HN will generally downvote strong displays of negative emotions, especially if it's something purely subjective. It was also slightly accusatory, saying other HN users were "making excuses" for this behavior. There's some ambiguity as to whether you meant the behavior itself was pathetic or the people "making excuses" were pathetic. I think you meant the latter. Maybe this is an easier way to understand it: imagine you're in a room filled with people talking about this issue, and you stood up and said what you said out loud. How do you expect people to react? Positively? I can't believe I'm explaining this in such detail. Haha.
  - deleted 16y ago
    [deleted]
  - Tichy 16y ago
    I don't think the point is to "shit on this guy". The point is to learn and hopefully have a better experience next time. As for the woman, the odds are not looking good in such a situation.
    - drivebyacct 16y ago
      lul just shit on her amirite
      - hugh3 16y ago
        Are you still complaining that you don't know why you're getting downmodded?
        drivebyacct 16y ago
        No, I've lost interest in bothering, I'm pretty much just mocking it now. My comment just above and the comment comparing reddit to HN, I fully expected to get downmodded. The other comments were simply chastising HN's mockery of the guy that actually believed what the Apple engineer said and IMO do not deserve to be downmodded.
  - jseliger 16y ago
    If a woman said she's interested in you, never calls back, and says SHE will call YOU, you wouldn't have hope and stay interested? No. Whoever writes Roissy in DC: http://roissy.wordpress.com/ http://roissy.wordpress.com/ is an asshole but also hilarious. It might be worth reading. In addition, the reason people are ragging on this guy is because a) the behavior is typical and b) not surprising from the POV of Apple. In addition, the guy is making the mistake PG writes about in Two Kinds of Judgment: http://paulgraham.com/judgement.html http://paulgraham.com/judgement.html .
rit 16y ago
Is it possible that the picture the author had in his head of "Being acquired" was skewing things here? I don't see any clear indications that an "Acquisition" was ever in the offing here. He emailed Steve, Steve forwarded it to an engineer who the author was lucky enough to hear back from at all. Most likely they looked at what he was outputting and weren't impressed, or had another solution in mind. I'm assuming (and hoping for his sake) from my interpretation that he never submitted actual code to them - just output.
- kenjackson 16y ago
  If you believe the OP the potential for acquisition was noted here: "Next he says that if I have incorporated the startup, Apple could acquire it or he could hire me to work with him." Who knows. I will say that it was handled very poorly. At the point they weren't interested they should have said it rather than just not responding to email.
  - rit 16y ago
    Emailing Steve the first time he was lucky it got handed off to someone in engineering. But to continue to pester the engineer and worse, Steve... What kind of response do you expect? Further, does he think the software engineer has nothing to do but work on this project with him?
    - jgg 16y ago
      Further, does he think the software engineer has nothing to do but work on this project with him? No, but when he explicitly promises something, and then doesn't deliver, it's more than fair for him to e-mail until that demand is met.
      - SamAtt 16y ago
        It's fair for him to e-mail but looking over the discussion it was stupid for him to e-mail so much (and cross the line into pestering). On May 4th the Apple guy said he'd need a few days to catch up because he'd been sick. The author then e-mailed him exactly 3 days later. That pattern continues with him e-mailing every few days or so. I personally use the two week rule. If someone says they'll get back to me in a few days I give them a couple weeks before I e-mail a reminder. If they don't respond I wait another week and if I still get nothing I give up. This guy comes across as self important and nothing turns other people off more than that.
mikeryan 16y ago
Sorry, not interested.
maukdaddy 16y ago
Apple certainly won't be interested in future projects with this dude.
- yumraj 16y ago
  Good!! Maybe this dude would do something for Android where his time and effort would, hopefully, be more appreciated.
  - nailer 16y ago
    Or better yet for himself. Make a generic solution to discoverability, rather than fix one bad implementation or another.
kls 16y ago
I think continuing to email Steve was his fatal mistake. It shows a manager that you are willing to jump rank at a moments notice. Some times you have to, but in this case 3 days go by and the manager says he is sick. Take him at face value and understand that managers of large corporations are extremely busy. I am sure that Steve told the manager to pull back after receiving secondary emails, realizing that this would be a high maintenance relationship in which he felt that he could ping Steve at a moments notice (a person who is even more busy)
- btilly 16y ago
  Read the dates again. The manager said he was sick on May 4. On May 14 he said he was caught up and would get back next Monday (which is May 17). There was another nudge on Wednesday, May 19. Almost a week after that, on May 25, Steve gets CCed again. While I grant that 3 days out due to sickness excuses some tardiness, the manager was given lots of time to catch up, many opportunities to respond, and over a week past the promised response time before Steve got CCed again.
  - johns 16y ago
    Are you familiar with the manager's schedule, workload and working priorities?
    - btilly 16y ago
      All that I need to know about the manager's schedule is this. The manager said on May 14 that he would get back by May 17, and failed to respond by May 25 despite an attempt to follow-up on May 19. If the manager's schedule, workload and working priorities were such that May 17 was unrealistic, then the manager should not have said he would get back on May 17.
      - hugh3 16y ago
        In which case, let he who has never said he'll do something by a certain date and then forgotten to do it cast the first stone. It ain't me.
sriramk 16y ago
I actually thought the Apple engineer, Patrick Gates, was super polite - a lot of people wouldn't even have bothered to respond. And I don't think anyone ever wanted to acquire anything.
- kenjackson 16y ago
  How is lying being polite? I'd rather get no response than a flat out lie. If you email Steve Jobs and he says, "I'm sending you a new iPad in the mail. Just send us your address." Are you happier that he responded then if he hadn't (except for the fact that you now have a good blog story to tell). Being polite would have been "thanks for contacting us. As you can imagine we're swamped with work, but we are interested in this. I'm going to have to put this on the backburner and get back to it when I can. No promises. I'll follow up with you when it looks like there's a good fit schedulewise. Thanks."
  - sriramk 16y ago
    Because he isn't lying. Stuff comes up all the time. He was being polite and I'm betting he genuinely wanted to get to it. I'm sympathetic because I've done this often - told someone I'll get back to them and then been absolutely drowned in work. I always hold out hope I'll get back to to it but I never do. I feel like the Apple engineer is being penalized for being polite. A lot of people would have just said "Thanks but we're busy". It looks like he genuinely wanted to look at it but never got around to it. The OP demonstrated some bad behavior by jumping multiple levels and CCing Jobs. When someone does that to me and CCs my management chain, he or she rarely gets the help they want - they've ticked me off and my management chain is going to trust me to deal with things. The OP mentions that he posted this just to show how bad Apple's corporate culture was. Though I doubt that's why this was posted, I actually thought this showed some good culture from Apple. The CEO CCes someone down the stack and then trusts his call. That's what you want your management to do. Across all this, I can't believe the OP thought he was looking at a possible acquisition by AAPL. At best, Patrick Gates was demonstrating polite engineer interest. The OP needs to learn to take a hint and how to deal with email communication.
abstractbill 16y ago
This is not what "almost getting acquired" looks like. At a stretch it might be what almost getting hired looks like, but even that would be pushing it I think. Of course it would be nice if people would just tell you when they're not interested, but generally nobody does that. Adjust your filters accordingly - if someone doesn't seem excited, they're probably not interested at all.
- Alex3917 16y ago
  Exactly. Startups get acquired because the executives at the big company like the founders and have been friends with them for a long time, not because they've solved some semantic problem. The poster doesn't really seem to understand how these things work.
  - zackattack 16y ago
    Um, please elaborate on this
    - deleted 16y ago
      [deleted]
  - abstractbill 16y ago
    Startups get acquired because the executives at the big company like the founders and have been friends with them for a long time... Maybe it happens, but this has not been my experience, or the experience of several of my friends who have had their startups acquired.
    - Alex3917 16y ago
      If you have enough power to purchase another company, you're probably making at least 500k year. If the company you acquire does great, then you'll probably get a small bonus. And if they tank, you'll get fired. Thus the individuals within the company doing the acquiring have a strong incentive to be extremely conservative. (Unless there are unusual circumstances, like a stock market bubble, some new technology, or a competitor buying a rival startup.) So basically to get acquired, you need to look like you're not going to embarrass the person doing the acquiring. The best way to do this is to have a longterm relationship with that person and their colleagues. This makes you feel like much more of a known entity in the eyes of the acquirer. Because at the end of the day, regardless of what the book say you never really know what you're getting when you buy a company. Everything piece of the company could be independently audited, but that's not going to stop a critical 5M dollar machine from breaking in half the day after you buy the business. Anyway I'm not an expert, this is just what I've heard from other people who have been acquired.
jgoewert 16y ago
What I expected: OP in negotiations with some technology that Apple would like to pick up to improve its product. OP says something like: "Google and Adobe do this better. You should talk to them." What I got: OP at the level of spam mailing Apple saying that he is the #1 superstar Ace to improve iTunes only to be told to "Get Bent."
rokhayakebe 16y ago
I bet every entrepreneur here would loved to see your startup get acquired, but buddy there were no hint of an acquisition in this guy's communication. You should have been patient, launch your app and keep the communication going. Then maybe, maybe, after 2 years they would look into you.
pclark 16y ago
Deals fall through.
alextingle 16y ago
There are no angels in this little drama.
- sigzero 16y ago
  Right. Apple could have treated him a bit better and he could have been professional by not throwing all that up on the net.
drusenko 16y ago
Welcome to the wild ride of dealing with large corporations. What you encountered here is absolutely standard -- in fact, I'd say it's actually better than what you'd get when dealing with most large companies, since Steve actually replied back at the end with a "not interested". You may have put a lot of hope in the "if you've already incorporated, we could acquire your company" line but I can guarantee they didn't put a lot of thought into it. They were just talking about hiring you (with "acquisition" as the legal mechanism, or not). Maybe with a bit of a hiring bonus. The standard play when dealing with any large company is always "hurry up and wait". For whatever reason, this is just something you need to get used to. Do you really expect either Steve or this engineering manager to be replying within 48 hours? I think the second you started badgering them and brought Steve back in the loop, you were toast.
- lkozma 16y ago
  Reminds me of Edison's saying: "Tesla, you don't understand our American humor"
  - hyperbovine 16y ago
    Of course, Edison said this after he screwed Tesla out of $50,000 (present value: $1.2 million) he had promised him. Was this the point you were trying to make?
    - lkozma 16y ago
      Yes :)
- megablast 16y ago
  Sounds like some manager just over stepping his mark, getting excited about a project, forgetting that Apple likes to do most of its work internally.
- hartror 16y ago
  Exactly, given the great opportunity he had a chance at the author should have been far more patient and dare I say a bit more professional. The experience I've had with dealing with big corps is very much "hurry up and wait". Often this is a symptom of the structure and politics of bigger institutions, where you don't have to convince just the person you are dealing with but convince them to convince others. If they decide to try to bring you in it is their reputation on the line, a reputation that could be damaged even if the deal never goes anywhere. I've been caught in the middle of some nasty office politics that have totally killed negotiations because I had the wrong guy championing my cause. Oh and does it strike anyone else as a bit unprofessional to go posting correspondence to the world? I'd certainly think twice before dealing with anyone who had done this in the past, talk about burning bridges! Or am I alone in expecting a certain measure of privacy in my business comms?
CoryMathews 16y ago
Something I still have yet to understand is how people who develop for and want to improve apple products repeatedly get screwed over by apple. (Granted he may have been a bit quick to jump to the top in this case) Then they keep going right back to develop and improve apple products. Why keep going back?
- hugh3 16y ago
  Then they keep going right back to develop and improve apple products. Why keep going back? Sunk cost? By the time you've mastered the intricacies of Objective C and a gazillion NextStep toolbox calls (or whatever they're called nowadays) what else are you gonna do?
  - mishmash 16y ago
    Learn something else??
smcl 16y ago
Even if Apple almost "acquired" you (I don't really get that impression), I'd say that penning a blog entry complaining about it is not the most productive thing to do (and might even cause investors in the future to think twice about getting involved with you).
tmsh 16y ago
I think in dealing with businesses, as an independent developer (or even as a developer concerned about your long-term career within an organization), you have to think about things in wireframe. Forget shaders, all that is extra. Wireframe = bottom line and the business requirements and strategies. Everything else on top, giving out free WWDC videos, etc., that's all extra. And it's great when it's available. But in negotiations you have to look at it in terms of wireframe mode. Otherwise, you'll focus on the wrong local extrema, etc.
jey 16y ago
The thing to do would have been to develop the app and submit it to the app store, get users, become popular, etc. Once you had some real traction acquisition might have been a possibility.
- Terretta 16y ago
  He didn't have the dataset.
  - jey 16y ago
    That doesn't seem to have stopped http://appsaurus.com/ http://appsaurus.com/
chaosmachine 16y ago
As someone who's been through this many times, here's a tip: Any time someone emails you about acquiring you, hiring you, sponsoring you, etc, just assume the actual odds of it happening are about 1%, and be happily surprised if something eventually comes of it. If they really, really want you, they'll be hitting you up every chance they get.
- zackattack 16y ago
  I think this is true but there's also a whole range of people who are on the fence and can be influenced, and to ignore them is a suboptimal and (imo) losing strategy.
jemfinch 16y ago
Maybe I'm just naive, but the final email in that conversation: """Thanks Steve. I’m a bit disappointed. Wish you all the best and looking forward to seeing more innovative products and services from Apple. Kandarp""" sounds very "Thank you sir may I have another?" to me.
- izaidi 16y ago
  Nah, he's just making sure Steve Jobs knows there are no hard feelings.
  - zackattack 16y ago
    I agree, but it's the "I'm a bit disappointed" that is weird, because given his previous communication he's obviously really disappointed.
    - nailer 16y ago
      He's saying he's disappointed but it isn't insurmountable and thus he'll get over it.
      - deleted 16y ago
        [deleted]
  - jemfinch 16y ago
    No hard feelings? I'd switch to android.
andrewstuart 16y ago
Doesn't look like it.
endlessvoid94 16y ago
You didn't really have any leverage in this situation. If you did, you didn't express it in a meaningful way. It's business, not personal. They have so many things going on, it's a bit like trying to get your resume noticed. Do something crazy, or obnoxious, or out of the blue that will get you noticed NOW. Then show them how, if they don't pay attention to you, it will cost them money.
Tichy 16y ago
"Given that search is their strength, it will be imperative on Apple to provide a more intuitive itunes/app store search and discovery solution to its users" No matter if you are right or wrong, I can imagine that Apple doesn't like being taught about what they should do. I imagine they think they have a fairly good idea as to what they should do. Maybe your attitude turned them off a little. Just a guess, though.
Murkin 16y ago
To save time, the gist of it: 1) Author emails Steve Jobs about algorithm to improve Appstore's discover-ability problem. 2) Steve replies. 3) Author gets strung along by a semi cooperating engineer. 4) A month and a few emails later, he is told: we are not interested. - At some point the engineer casually mentions that if he (the Author) incorporated, Apple could acquire him (i.e. hire him).
mkull 16y ago
IMO you were extremely lucky to get any response whatsoever. If I am Patrick I would have quickly dumped you in the pester / annoyance category. Bringing Steve jobs into the mix the second time was fatal, regardless of time frame this is not something to bother him with.
starkfist 16y ago
The interest dropped off right after he submitted the results of the algorithm. So perhaps the algorithm simply wasn't good. Emailing the CEO with a novel algorithm idea and then sending in the results is classic crackpot behavior, not unlike sending your theory of everything to the head of the MIT physics department. I'm surprised anyone responded at all to the initial email.
raheemm 16y ago
The Apple engineer made the mistake of casually talking about "acquiring" or "hiring". That would greatly raise anyone's expectations and subsequent anxiety. The other guy made the mistake of being pushy, especially when he cc'ed Steve - it likely pissed off the Apple engineer and certainly would not have made a good impression on Steve.
zaidf 16y ago
Well if it helps, we held 4 in-person meetings with a company with keen interest before they went totally cold. Took a few months to get a clear "no." This wasn't too bad. All things aside, I don't think Apple was interested in acquiring you. You did the best you could. They did the best they could. I really don't think you pestering them would matter much if they really wanted your technology.
cheriot 16y ago
a) This looks really useful b) Could you create and Android store so people can benefit from your idea?
nostromo 16y ago
I feel for this guy -- this is a case of not "speaking American." As an American who works with foreigners a lot, I hear a lot of complaints about how we try to let people down nicely instead of being direct. My middle-east coworkers especially hate this. Email makes it even worse.
portman 16y ago
"It is unethical in all cultures to keep someone waiting while you flout the time commitments." I think you mean "impolite", not "unethical". Keeping someone waiting doesn't really have a moral value one way or another. Secondly, unless you are Margaret Mead or an anthropologist of equal stature, you're not qualified to talk about what is polite in ALL cultures. It might be impolite in YOUR culture, but that doesn't necessarily apply to other cultures.
mchristoff 16y ago
When someone drops out of communication with you for more than a week it almost always means they're not that interested. This is true for potential employers, investors, mates, etc. While its unfortunate that people aren't more direct, the fact is, rejection takes work and provides very little upside for the person doing the rejecting.
xsive 16y ago
I've written some software which I occasionally receive emails about. I'll say this: if you ask an intelligent question, I will very likely help you. However, if you follow that up by peppering me with further questions or come across as demanding/pushy, I'm very likely to ignore you. This is also generally true for open source projects and I'm not surprised the same applies for Apple. OP: you screwed up. you have noone to blame but yourself.
zaph0d 16y ago
Talk is cheap. Show me^H^Hus the code.
retube 16y ago
There's no "almost" about this. far, far, far from almost.
Aegean 16y ago
Its a great insight to how the conversation goes with a large corporation, so thanks to whoever posted it. However the conversation becomes rather emotional. The first email is pretty professional, concisely describing a problem and solution, which got him the initial probing. But if it turns out to be negative in the end, its really nobody to blame.
djb_hackernews 16y ago
Semantic search? a bounded data set? Hasn't this problem been solved a million times? Surely Apple has a team with exactly this specialty?
adolph 16y ago
How exactly does a one-entry weblog make it to the front page? Clearly this guy has some semantic mojo. Otherwise, the story is dumb because it isn't "almost got acquired." It's "dude gets excessively excited because of a couple of emails." Just reread the Panic Audion story for something interesting: http://www.panic.com/extras/audionstory/ http://www.panic.com/extras/audionstory/
joshu 16y ago
Someone wants to do a deal? Get a face to fact meeting. Get on a plane if you have to.

152 points by kanny96 16y ago

You sound awfully pushy, and can't you just take a hint? I have been not called back by women, customers, partners, and everyone else. They have expressed interest and left me hanging. At first, you be persistent, and you get more dates and more contracts because of it. But you also learn when to take a hint, and Apple gave you several.

drivebyacct 16y ago
If a woman said she's interested in you, never calls back, and says SHE will call YOU, you wouldn't have hope and stay interested? I don't understand why this thread seems to be going out of their way to shit on this guy. It's not like Apple said "eh" and didn't respond, they kept saying they'd get back to him and never bothered. It's called leading someone on, it's rude, and I'm startled at the number of excuses that are being made for this guy.
- carbocation 16y ago
  > If a woman said she's interested in you, never calls back, and says SHE will call YOU, you wouldn't have hope and stay interested? Wait, what? This is the classic way by which someone expresses that they are not interested without saying so directly. Don't call us; we'll call you.
  - zackattack 16y ago
    I disagree. It can often mean what it says it means. But if body language is negative, don't count on a call back.
    - hnote 16y ago
      Are you an Asker or a Guesser? http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2010/may/08/change-life-asker-guesser http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2010/may/08/change-li...
      - zackattack 16y ago
        I'm an Asker but I don't know why I was downvoted. Two months ago I saw a woman in a coffee shop and hit on her. I invited her to go out with me and see Taming Your Dragon In 3-D. She declined and said it was lame. But she took my number and said she'd call me and invite me to a beach party some time. I never got a call from her, and even saw her again in the same coffee shop, but didn't bring it up. She called me today to invite me out this weekend to a beach party. My point is that you can never predict these things. If someone is giving you the "polite yes" or the "polite maybe" but is giving you bad vibes via body language, then you can use that to help gauge your interpretation.
  - drivebyacct 16y ago
    That's shitty and I still can't believe people are making excuses for this type of behavior. It's pathetic.
    - drivebyacct 16y ago
      Most pathetic downmodding I've seen on HN. This isn't even passive aggressive, this is just being a shitty human being. Fuck you all. It's really cool that HN is going the reddit route of downmodding comments that they disagree with. Although I don't even think my comments would have been downmodded over there. Because we're all hip and "hackers" at HN we just tolerate and expect people to be shitty to each other in the business world. Real cool guys.
      - jrockway 16y ago
        . <-- The world's smallest violin.
      - jfarmer 16y ago
        People are downvoting you because your response was so acerbic. This reply isn't helping.
        drivebyacct 16y ago
        No it's not. Point out what was so "acerbic" in my original reply. I've read it twice now and there's nothing out of line in it. The only emotion I injected was "I am startled". Yeah, really `acid in temper or mood`. Especially when * ironically* I was addressing the acerbic comments being pointed at the author for ACTUALLY BELIEVING people when they told him they were interested. Is it opposite day on HN or did I miss a memo?
        jfarmer 16y ago
        I didn't say it was out of line, just acerbic. "shitty" "can't believe" "pathetic" Strong words. HN will generally downvote strong displays of negative emotions, especially if it's something purely subjective. It was also slightly accusatory, saying other HN users were "making excuses" for this behavior. There's some ambiguity as to whether you meant the behavior itself was pathetic or the people "making excuses" were pathetic. I think you meant the latter. Maybe this is an easier way to understand it: imagine you're in a room filled with people talking about this issue, and you stood up and said what you said out loud. How do you expect people to react? Positively? I can't believe I'm explaining this in such detail. Haha.
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
- Tichy 16y ago
  I don't think the point is to "shit on this guy". The point is to learn and hopefully have a better experience next time. As for the woman, the odds are not looking good in such a situation.
  - drivebyacct 16y ago
    lul just shit on her amirite
    - hugh3 16y ago
      Are you still complaining that you don't know why you're getting downmodded?
      - drivebyacct 16y ago
        No, I've lost interest in bothering, I'm pretty much just mocking it now. My comment just above and the comment comparing reddit to HN, I fully expected to get downmodded. The other comments were simply chastising HN's mockery of the guy that actually believed what the Apple engineer said and IMO do not deserve to be downmodded.
- jseliger 16y ago
  If a woman said she's interested in you, never calls back, and says SHE will call YOU, you wouldn't have hope and stay interested? No. Whoever writes Roissy in DC: http://roissy.wordpress.com/ http://roissy.wordpress.com/ is an asshole but also hilarious. It might be worth reading. In addition, the reason people are ragging on this guy is because a) the behavior is typical and b) not surprising from the POV of Apple. In addition, the guy is making the mistake PG writes about in Two Kinds of Judgment: http://paulgraham.com/judgement.html http://paulgraham.com/judgement.html .

rit 16y ago

Is it possible that the picture the author had in his head of "Being acquired" was skewing things here? I don't see any clear indications that an "Acquisition" was ever in the offing here. He emailed Steve, Steve forwarded it to an engineer who the author was lucky enough to hear back from at all. Most likely they looked at what he was outputting and weren't impressed, or had another solution in mind. I'm assuming (and hoping for his sake) from my interpretation that he never submitted actual code to them - just output.

kenjackson 16y ago
If you believe the OP the potential for acquisition was noted here: "Next he says that if I have incorporated the startup, Apple could acquire it or he could hire me to work with him." Who knows. I will say that it was handled very poorly. At the point they weren't interested they should have said it rather than just not responding to email.
- rit 16y ago
  Emailing Steve the first time he was lucky it got handed off to someone in engineering. But to continue to pester the engineer and worse, Steve... What kind of response do you expect? Further, does he think the software engineer has nothing to do but work on this project with him?
  - jgg 16y ago
    Further, does he think the software engineer has nothing to do but work on this project with him? No, but when he explicitly promises something, and then doesn't deliver, it's more than fair for him to e-mail until that demand is met.
    - SamAtt 16y ago
      It's fair for him to e-mail but looking over the discussion it was stupid for him to e-mail so much (and cross the line into pestering). On May 4th the Apple guy said he'd need a few days to catch up because he'd been sick. The author then e-mailed him exactly 3 days later. That pattern continues with him e-mailing every few days or so. I personally use the two week rule. If someone says they'll get back to me in a few days I give them a couple weeks before I e-mail a reminder. If they don't respond I wait another week and if I still get nothing I give up. This guy comes across as self important and nothing turns other people off more than that.

mikeryan 16y ago

Sorry, not interested.

maukdaddy 16y ago

Apple certainly won't be interested in future projects with this dude.

yumraj 16y ago
Good!! Maybe this dude would do something for Android where his time and effort would, hopefully, be more appreciated.
- nailer 16y ago
  Or better yet for himself. Make a generic solution to discoverability, rather than fix one bad implementation or another.

kls 16y ago

I think continuing to email Steve was his fatal mistake. It shows a manager that you are willing to jump rank at a moments notice. Some times you have to, but in this case 3 days go by and the manager says he is sick. Take him at face value and understand that managers of large corporations are extremely busy. I am sure that Steve told the manager to pull back after receiving secondary emails, realizing that this would be a high maintenance relationship in which he felt that he could ping Steve at a moments notice (a person who is even more busy)

btilly 16y ago
Read the dates again. The manager said he was sick on May 4. On May 14 he said he was caught up and would get back next Monday (which is May 17). There was another nudge on Wednesday, May 19. Almost a week after that, on May 25, Steve gets CCed again. While I grant that 3 days out due to sickness excuses some tardiness, the manager was given lots of time to catch up, many opportunities to respond, and over a week past the promised response time before Steve got CCed again.
- johns 16y ago
  Are you familiar with the manager's schedule, workload and working priorities?
  - btilly 16y ago
    All that I need to know about the manager's schedule is this. The manager said on May 14 that he would get back by May 17, and failed to respond by May 25 despite an attempt to follow-up on May 19. If the manager's schedule, workload and working priorities were such that May 17 was unrealistic, then the manager should not have said he would get back on May 17.
    - hugh3 16y ago
      In which case, let he who has never said he'll do something by a certain date and then forgotten to do it cast the first stone. It ain't me.

sriramk 16y ago

I actually thought the Apple engineer, Patrick Gates, was super polite - a lot of people wouldn't even have bothered to respond. And I don't think anyone ever wanted to acquire anything.

kenjackson 16y ago
How is lying being polite? I'd rather get no response than a flat out lie. If you email Steve Jobs and he says, "I'm sending you a new iPad in the mail. Just send us your address." Are you happier that he responded then if he hadn't (except for the fact that you now have a good blog story to tell). Being polite would have been "thanks for contacting us. As you can imagine we're swamped with work, but we are interested in this. I'm going to have to put this on the backburner and get back to it when I can. No promises. I'll follow up with you when it looks like there's a good fit schedulewise. Thanks."
- sriramk 16y ago
  Because he isn't lying. Stuff comes up all the time. He was being polite and I'm betting he genuinely wanted to get to it. I'm sympathetic because I've done this often - told someone I'll get back to them and then been absolutely drowned in work. I always hold out hope I'll get back to to it but I never do. I feel like the Apple engineer is being penalized for being polite. A lot of people would have just said "Thanks but we're busy". It looks like he genuinely wanted to look at it but never got around to it. The OP demonstrated some bad behavior by jumping multiple levels and CCing Jobs. When someone does that to me and CCs my management chain, he or she rarely gets the help they want - they've ticked me off and my management chain is going to trust me to deal with things. The OP mentions that he posted this just to show how bad Apple's corporate culture was. Though I doubt that's why this was posted, I actually thought this showed some good culture from Apple. The CEO CCes someone down the stack and then trusts his call. That's what you want your management to do. Across all this, I can't believe the OP thought he was looking at a possible acquisition by AAPL. At best, Patrick Gates was demonstrating polite engineer interest. The OP needs to learn to take a hint and how to deal with email communication.

abstractbill 16y ago

This is not what "almost getting acquired" looks like. At a stretch it might be what almost getting hired looks like, but even that would be pushing it I think. Of course it would be nice if people would just tell you when they're not interested, but generally nobody does that. Adjust your filters accordingly - if someone doesn't seem excited, they're probably not interested at all.

Alex3917 16y ago
Exactly. Startups get acquired because the executives at the big company like the founders and have been friends with them for a long time, not because they've solved some semantic problem. The poster doesn't really seem to understand how these things work.
- zackattack 16y ago
  Um, please elaborate on this
  - deleted 16y ago
    [deleted]
- abstractbill 16y ago
  Startups get acquired because the executives at the big company like the founders and have been friends with them for a long time... Maybe it happens, but this has not been my experience, or the experience of several of my friends who have had their startups acquired.
  - Alex3917 16y ago
    If you have enough power to purchase another company, you're probably making at least 500k year. If the company you acquire does great, then you'll probably get a small bonus. And if they tank, you'll get fired. Thus the individuals within the company doing the acquiring have a strong incentive to be extremely conservative. (Unless there are unusual circumstances, like a stock market bubble, some new technology, or a competitor buying a rival startup.) So basically to get acquired, you need to look like you're not going to embarrass the person doing the acquiring. The best way to do this is to have a longterm relationship with that person and their colleagues. This makes you feel like much more of a known entity in the eyes of the acquirer. Because at the end of the day, regardless of what the book say you never really know what you're getting when you buy a company. Everything piece of the company could be independently audited, but that's not going to stop a critical 5M dollar machine from breaking in half the day after you buy the business. Anyway I'm not an expert, this is just what I've heard from other people who have been acquired.

jgoewert 16y ago

What I expected: OP in negotiations with some technology that Apple would like to pick up to improve its product. OP says something like: "Google and Adobe do this better. You should talk to them." What I got: OP at the level of spam mailing Apple saying that he is the #1 superstar Ace to improve iTunes only to be told to "Get Bent."

rokhayakebe 16y ago

I bet every entrepreneur here would loved to see your startup get acquired, but buddy there were no hint of an acquisition in this guy's communication. You should have been patient, launch your app and keep the communication going. Then maybe, maybe, after 2 years they would look into you.

pclark 16y ago

Deals fall through.

alextingle 16y ago

There are no angels in this little drama.

sigzero 16y ago
Right. Apple could have treated him a bit better and he could have been professional by not throwing all that up on the net.

drusenko 16y ago

Welcome to the wild ride of dealing with large corporations. What you encountered here is absolutely standard -- in fact, I'd say it's actually better than what you'd get when dealing with most large companies, since Steve actually replied back at the end with a "not interested". You may have put a lot of hope in the "if you've already incorporated, we could acquire your company" line but I can guarantee they didn't put a lot of thought into it. They were just talking about hiring you (with "acquisition" as the legal mechanism, or not). Maybe with a bit of a hiring bonus. The standard play when dealing with any large company is always "hurry up and wait". For whatever reason, this is just something you need to get used to. Do you really expect either Steve or this engineering manager to be replying within 48 hours? I think the second you started badgering them and brought Steve back in the loop, you were toast.

lkozma 16y ago
Reminds me of Edison's saying: "Tesla, you don't understand our American humor"
- hyperbovine 16y ago
  Of course, Edison said this after he screwed Tesla out of $50,000 (present value: $1.2 million) he had promised him. Was this the point you were trying to make?
  - lkozma 16y ago
    Yes :)
megablast 16y ago
Sounds like some manager just over stepping his mark, getting excited about a project, forgetting that Apple likes to do most of its work internally.
hartror 16y ago
Exactly, given the great opportunity he had a chance at the author should have been far more patient and dare I say a bit more professional. The experience I've had with dealing with big corps is very much "hurry up and wait". Often this is a symptom of the structure and politics of bigger institutions, where you don't have to convince just the person you are dealing with but convince them to convince others. If they decide to try to bring you in it is their reputation on the line, a reputation that could be damaged even if the deal never goes anywhere. I've been caught in the middle of some nasty office politics that have totally killed negotiations because I had the wrong guy championing my cause. Oh and does it strike anyone else as a bit unprofessional to go posting correspondence to the world? I'd certainly think twice before dealing with anyone who had done this in the past, talk about burning bridges! Or am I alone in expecting a certain measure of privacy in my business comms?

CoryMathews 16y ago

Something I still have yet to understand is how people who develop for and want to improve apple products repeatedly get screwed over by apple. (Granted he may have been a bit quick to jump to the top in this case) Then they keep going right back to develop and improve apple products. Why keep going back?

hugh3 16y ago
Then they keep going right back to develop and improve apple products. Why keep going back? Sunk cost? By the time you've mastered the intricacies of Objective C and a gazillion NextStep toolbox calls (or whatever they're called nowadays) what else are you gonna do?
- mishmash 16y ago
  Learn something else??

smcl 16y ago

Even if Apple almost "acquired" you (I don't really get that impression), I'd say that penning a blog entry complaining about it is not the most productive thing to do (and might even cause investors in the future to think twice about getting involved with you).

tmsh 16y ago

I think in dealing with businesses, as an independent developer (or even as a developer concerned about your long-term career within an organization), you have to think about things in wireframe. Forget shaders, all that is extra. Wireframe = bottom line and the business requirements and strategies. Everything else on top, giving out free WWDC videos, etc., that's all extra. And it's great when it's available. But in negotiations you have to look at it in terms of wireframe mode. Otherwise, you'll focus on the wrong local extrema, etc.

jey 16y ago

The thing to do would have been to develop the app and submit it to the app store, get users, become popular, etc. Once you had some real traction acquisition might have been a possibility.

Terretta 16y ago
He didn't have the dataset.
- jey 16y ago
  That doesn't seem to have stopped http://appsaurus.com/ http://appsaurus.com/

chaosmachine 16y ago

As someone who's been through this many times, here's a tip: Any time someone emails you about acquiring you, hiring you, sponsoring you, etc, just assume the actual odds of it happening are about 1%, and be happily surprised if something eventually comes of it. If they really, really want you, they'll be hitting you up every chance they get.

zackattack 16y ago
I think this is true but there's also a whole range of people who are on the fence and can be influenced, and to ignore them is a suboptimal and (imo) losing strategy.

jemfinch 16y ago

Maybe I'm just naive, but the final email in that conversation: """Thanks Steve. I’m a bit disappointed. Wish you all the best and looking forward to seeing more innovative products and services from Apple. Kandarp""" sounds very "Thank you sir may I have another?" to me.

izaidi 16y ago
Nah, he's just making sure Steve Jobs knows there are no hard feelings.
- zackattack 16y ago
  I agree, but it's the "I'm a bit disappointed" that is weird, because given his previous communication he's obviously really disappointed.
  - nailer 16y ago
    He's saying he's disappointed but it isn't insurmountable and thus he'll get over it.
    - deleted 16y ago
      [deleted]
- jemfinch 16y ago
  No hard feelings? I'd switch to android.

andrewstuart 16y ago

Doesn't look like it.

endlessvoid94 16y ago

You didn't really have any leverage in this situation. If you did, you didn't express it in a meaningful way. It's business, not personal. They have so many things going on, it's a bit like trying to get your resume noticed. Do something crazy, or obnoxious, or out of the blue that will get you noticed NOW. Then show them how, if they don't pay attention to you, it will cost them money.

Tichy 16y ago

"Given that search is their strength, it will be imperative on Apple to provide a more intuitive itunes/app store search and discovery solution to its users" No matter if you are right or wrong, I can imagine that Apple doesn't like being taught about what they should do. I imagine they think they have a fairly good idea as to what they should do. Maybe your attitude turned them off a little. Just a guess, though.

Murkin 16y ago

To save time, the gist of it: 1) Author emails Steve Jobs about algorithm to improve Appstore's discover-ability problem. 2) Steve replies. 3) Author gets strung along by a semi cooperating engineer. 4) A month and a few emails later, he is told: we are not interested. - At some point the engineer casually mentions that if he (the Author) incorporated, Apple could acquire him (i.e. hire him).

mkull 16y ago

IMO you were extremely lucky to get any response whatsoever. If I am Patrick I would have quickly dumped you in the pester / annoyance category. Bringing Steve jobs into the mix the second time was fatal, regardless of time frame this is not something to bother him with.

starkfist 16y ago

The interest dropped off right after he submitted the results of the algorithm. So perhaps the algorithm simply wasn't good. Emailing the CEO with a novel algorithm idea and then sending in the results is classic crackpot behavior, not unlike sending your theory of everything to the head of the MIT physics department. I'm surprised anyone responded at all to the initial email.

raheemm 16y ago

The Apple engineer made the mistake of casually talking about "acquiring" or "hiring". That would greatly raise anyone's expectations and subsequent anxiety. The other guy made the mistake of being pushy, especially when he cc'ed Steve - it likely pissed off the Apple engineer and certainly would not have made a good impression on Steve.

zaidf 16y ago

Well if it helps, we held 4 in-person meetings with a company with keen interest before they went totally cold. Took a few months to get a clear "no." This wasn't too bad. All things aside, I don't think Apple was interested in acquiring you. You did the best you could. They did the best they could. I really don't think you pestering them would matter much if they really wanted your technology.

cheriot 16y ago

a) This looks really useful b) Could you create and Android store so people can benefit from your idea?

nostromo 16y ago

I feel for this guy -- this is a case of not "speaking American." As an American who works with foreigners a lot, I hear a lot of complaints about how we try to let people down nicely instead of being direct. My middle-east coworkers especially hate this. Email makes it even worse.

portman 16y ago

"It is unethical in all cultures to keep someone waiting while you flout the time commitments." I think you mean "impolite", not "unethical". Keeping someone waiting doesn't really have a moral value one way or another. Secondly, unless you are Margaret Mead or an anthropologist of equal stature, you're not qualified to talk about what is polite in ALL cultures. It might be impolite in YOUR culture, but that doesn't necessarily apply to other cultures.

mchristoff 16y ago

When someone drops out of communication with you for more than a week it almost always means they're not that interested. This is true for potential employers, investors, mates, etc. While its unfortunate that people aren't more direct, the fact is, rejection takes work and provides very little upside for the person doing the rejecting.

xsive 16y ago

I've written some software which I occasionally receive emails about. I'll say this: if you ask an intelligent question, I will very likely help you. However, if you follow that up by peppering me with further questions or come across as demanding/pushy, I'm very likely to ignore you. This is also generally true for open source projects and I'm not surprised the same applies for Apple. OP: you screwed up. you have noone to blame but yourself.

zaph0d 16y ago

Talk is cheap. Show me^H^Hus the code.

retube 16y ago

There's no "almost" about this. far, far, far from almost.

Aegean 16y ago

Its a great insight to how the conversation goes with a large corporation, so thanks to whoever posted it. However the conversation becomes rather emotional. The first email is pretty professional, concisely describing a problem and solution, which got him the initial probing. But if it turns out to be negative in the end, its really nobody to blame.

djb_hackernews 16y ago

Semantic search? a bounded data set? Hasn't this problem been solved a million times? Surely Apple has a team with exactly this specialty?

adolph 16y ago

How exactly does a one-entry weblog make it to the front page? Clearly this guy has some semantic mojo. Otherwise, the story is dumb because it isn't "almost got acquired." It's "dude gets excessively excited because of a couple of emails." Just reread the Panic Audion story for something interesting: http://www.panic.com/extras/audionstory/ http://www.panic.com/extras/audionstory/

joshu 16y ago

Someone wants to do a deal? Get a face to fact meeting. Get on a plane if you have to.