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I posted about some of my passengers' justice-induced traumas: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13286085 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13286085 Pun

I posted about some of my passengers' justice-induced traumas: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13286085 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13286085 Punishment is always counter-productive to correct the behavior of people who are "drowning": addicts, members of the under-class, children who've yet to fully mature (brain is still developing until 25 years), etc.

omginternets 9y ago
>brain is still developing until 25 years Careful, "developing" is very much a weasel word in these contexts. Brains are "developing" until death. That's very much their purpose: to change as a function of input. Also, "punishment" is a bit of a weasel word in this context. It's quite clear that some form of punishment is instrumental in the proper development of the brain, especially with regards to social norm. This holds even with people in the depths of despair. The issue is about whether we're actually punishing in a constructive way, and whether we're simultaneously extending a helping hand.
- zepto 9y ago
  Careful, you might be being accurate but pedantic. Rather than picking at the parent poster, why not say what you think about the issue?
  - omginternets 9y ago
    Because I wanted to address this fallacious argument that appears over and over. In case I wasn't clear: I think any sensible policy has to include punitive measures, along with adequate support.
    - zepto 9y ago
      You were not clear. But now that you have been, how is this anything other than empty? Who would disagree other than some fictional absolutist?
      - omginternets 9y ago
        >other than some fictional absolutist? Like the OP who claims that all punishment is problematic? >how is this anything other than empty? As you so astutely observed, I have nothing of substance to add to that part of the discussion. Where I do have something of substance to add is with respect to an oft-repeated factual error about brain development, and a broader misconception about the problems involved in punitive measurements. For someone worried about pedantry, you sure seem to be splitting hairs.
        zepto 9y ago
        Try reading the OP again and you will find no claim that all punishment is problematic.
    - taxicabjesus 9y ago
      > In case I wasn't clear: I think any sensible policy has to include punitive measures, along with adequate support. What sort of punitive measure is appropriate to use on someone whose doctor turned her into an alcoholic? What sort of punitive measures are appropriate for use on depressed people? "Sensible policy" would acknowledge that prison usually makes people's actual behavioral problems worse.
      - omginternets 9y ago
        >"Sensible policy" would acknowledge that prison usually makes people's actual behavioral problems worse. Indeed. Prison is not the only form of punishment, and indeed it is not the most effective (in a large, if not overwhelming, majority of cases). I think if you stopped and caught your breath, you'd realize we're mostly in agreement.
        zepto 9y ago
        Nothing you wrote before this suggests any agreement. I believe you actually are in a fair degree of agreement now, but your approach to communication didn't convey that and you should review it if you intend to be constructive.
nickbauman 9y ago
Thank you for posting this. Considering just Louisiana has the highest incarceration rate ON EARTH, we in the US have a long way to go to reform our criminal justice system.

omginternets 9y ago

>brain is still developing until 25 years Careful, "developing" is very much a weasel word in these contexts. Brains are "developing" until death. That's very much their purpose: to change as a function of input. Also, "punishment" is a bit of a weasel word in this context. It's quite clear that some form of punishment is instrumental in the proper development of the brain, especially with regards to social norm. This holds even with people in the depths of despair. The issue is about whether we're actually punishing in a constructive way, and whether we're simultaneously extending a helping hand.

zepto 9y ago
Careful, you might be being accurate but pedantic. Rather than picking at the parent poster, why not say what you think about the issue?
- omginternets 9y ago
  Because I wanted to address this fallacious argument that appears over and over. In case I wasn't clear: I think any sensible policy has to include punitive measures, along with adequate support.
  - zepto 9y ago
    You were not clear. But now that you have been, how is this anything other than empty? Who would disagree other than some fictional absolutist?
    - omginternets 9y ago
      >other than some fictional absolutist? Like the OP who claims that all punishment is problematic? >how is this anything other than empty? As you so astutely observed, I have nothing of substance to add to that part of the discussion. Where I do have something of substance to add is with respect to an oft-repeated factual error about brain development, and a broader misconception about the problems involved in punitive measurements. For someone worried about pedantry, you sure seem to be splitting hairs.
      - zepto 9y ago
        Try reading the OP again and you will find no claim that all punishment is problematic.
  - taxicabjesus 9y ago
    > In case I wasn't clear: I think any sensible policy has to include punitive measures, along with adequate support. What sort of punitive measure is appropriate to use on someone whose doctor turned her into an alcoholic? What sort of punitive measures are appropriate for use on depressed people? "Sensible policy" would acknowledge that prison usually makes people's actual behavioral problems worse.
    - omginternets 9y ago
      >"Sensible policy" would acknowledge that prison usually makes people's actual behavioral problems worse. Indeed. Prison is not the only form of punishment, and indeed it is not the most effective (in a large, if not overwhelming, majority of cases). I think if you stopped and caught your breath, you'd realize we're mostly in agreement.
      - zepto 9y ago
        Nothing you wrote before this suggests any agreement. I believe you actually are in a fair degree of agreement now, but your approach to communication didn't convey that and you should review it if you intend to be constructive.

nickbauman 9y ago

Thank you for posting this. Considering just Louisiana has the highest incarceration rate ON EARTH, we in the US have a long way to go to reform our criminal justice system.