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> let's also step back and consider why someone would value things like evidence-based judgments and due process. I agree wholeheartedly that there is nothing

by jlebar 9y ago

> let's also step back and consider why someone would value things like evidence-based judgments and due process. I agree wholeheartedly that there is nothing wrong with valuing evidence-based judgements and due process. But that is not what I was ranting against. Conflating the trope of immediately jumping to a concern about false accusations while ignoring victims with "valuing evidence-based judgements and due process" is, however, a pretty good example of what I am bothered by. I think the real thought experiment is: Why would so many of the HN comments jump to worrying about the false accusations, without paying any heed for the victims? I think the answer might be, most of us here have never had to worry about being harassed at work. Most of us here don't know what it's like to be worried for our safety -- psychological or sexual -- at work. Most of us don't know what it's like to be subjected to a constant stream of microagressions from coworkers. So most of us can't imagine what many minorities in tech go through on a daily basis. That's just because most of us fit in. What all of us can imagine is being falsely accused of doing something bad. And so since that's what we can imagine without effort, that's what we talk about, and worry about. Availability bias. Falling prey to the availability bias doesn't make you a bad person. But you can learn to be better.

humanrebar 9y ago
> Why would so many of the HN comments jump to worrying about the false accusations, without paying any heed for the victims? What makes you think they don't care about victims? My loved ones and I volunteer a lot in this area. > Why would so many of the HN comments jump to worrying about the false accusations... There are personal (verbal, emotional abuse) and social (bullying) forms of abuse that hinge on slander, lies, and manipulation to punish people or to otherwise assert power. Wanting to make sure that is not an issue is wanting to protect people. I guess we could argue about which kinds of innocent people are worth protecting, but I'm not really interested in getting into that business. There aren't many specifics being posted here about particular stories, but there mostly seems to be consensus that egregious behavior requires at least immediate dismissal and that less cut-and-dry incidents require some sort of correction. There also seems to be agreement that better awareness of poor behavior is a good thing. There just doesn't seem to be consensus that anonymous posts sent out by anonymous curators is the best way to go about this. That doesn't mean some people are indifferent to awful things. They're just wary that the tools we use to help people don't end up hurting others.
- jlebar 9y ago
  >> Why would so many of the HN comments jump to worrying about the false accusations, without paying any heed for the victims? > What makes you think they don't care about victims? I never said that anyone does or doesn't care about anyone else. I said that the words written here on HN focused on the spectre of false accusations, rather than on the victims of harassment, abuse, and worse. I also said that this is a common, much-discussed failure mode, and that we should know better. > There are personal (verbal, emotional abuse) and social (bullying) forms of abuse that hinge on slander, lies, and manipulation to punish people or to otherwise assert power. Wanting to make sure that is not an issue is wanting to protect people. Right. But in this particular instance, we're talking about wanting to protect people from those they're harassing. This list is very clearly not being used to bully anyone, and part of my objection is with the kneejerk assumption that this must be what's going on, and that privileged white men aren't getting sufficient protection in their workplace. What I am saying is, rather than restricting our consideration to fringy concerns of how this list might harm white men (it doesn't), we should also (not even exclusively! -- just also) consider how it affects everyone else. [edited for formatting]
metaphorm 9y ago
> Why would so many of the HN comments jump to worrying about the false accusations, without paying any heed for the victims? you're connecting two points that are not naturally connected. caring about false accusations does not exclude caring about victims. additionally, some awareness of the current political climate is necessary for this discussion. false accusations have been weaponized in other contexts.
- jlebar 9y ago
  > false accusations have been weaponized in other contexts. I really think you are missing my point, sadly.
  - metaphorm 9y ago
    what's your point then? maybe you're missing my point.
    - jlebar 9y ago
      My point is: > This trope of jumping immediately to the problem of false accusations is sadly common in discussions e.g. of rape reporting. Yes, some reports of rape (and harassment) are untrue. The vast majority aren't. Jumping so quickly, as many comments here have, to considering effects of fake reports is wildly disrespectful of the (largely female, and thus underrepresented here and at places like Google) victims, and is part of the reason that rape and sexual assault go underreported.
      - metaphorm 9y ago
        so I'm sure now that you're not understanding my point, which is that implementing a system that facilitates false accusations does significant harm and does not remedy the real actual problem of under-reporting to legal authorities. a victim of a crime should make a criminal complaint, and if he or she doesn't, then we should attempt to discover the reasons why not. however, anonymously accusing people of misconduct does absolutely nothing to assist those who have been wronged. it has significant potential for harm and creates a chilling effect and a culture of paranoia. what is the supposed benefit of anonymous accusations? is this intended to mitigate against future misconduct? why do you suppose it will accomplish that? my intuition on this is that those who are legitimately abusive will continue to be abusive (because they are already insensitive and not caring about how their actions impact others) and those that are only accidentally committing transgressions will now be subjected to ostracism because they could not adequately predict how their actions made in good faith will be perceived by others. additionally, let's consider the principles of due process and justice described in the U.S. constitution. the right to face your accuser. the right to expedient arbitration. the right to representation. the right to defend yourself without being presumed guilty. all of these principles of justice are lost with an anonymous accusation mailing list.

by jlebar 9y ago

humanrebar 9y ago

> Why would so many of the HN comments jump to worrying about the false accusations, without paying any heed for the victims? What makes you think they don't care about victims? My loved ones and I volunteer a lot in this area. > Why would so many of the HN comments jump to worrying about the false accusations... There are personal (verbal, emotional abuse) and social (bullying) forms of abuse that hinge on slander, lies, and manipulation to punish people or to otherwise assert power. Wanting to make sure that is not an issue is wanting to protect people. I guess we could argue about which kinds of innocent people are worth protecting, but I'm not really interested in getting into that business. There aren't many specifics being posted here about particular stories, but there mostly seems to be consensus that egregious behavior requires at least immediate dismissal and that less cut-and-dry incidents require some sort of correction. There also seems to be agreement that better awareness of poor behavior is a good thing. There just doesn't seem to be consensus that anonymous posts sent out by anonymous curators is the best way to go about this. That doesn't mean some people are indifferent to awful things. They're just wary that the tools we use to help people don't end up hurting others.

jlebar 9y ago
>> Why would so many of the HN comments jump to worrying about the false accusations, without paying any heed for the victims? > What makes you think they don't care about victims? I never said that anyone does or doesn't care about anyone else. I said that the words written here on HN focused on the spectre of false accusations, rather than on the victims of harassment, abuse, and worse. I also said that this is a common, much-discussed failure mode, and that we should know better. > There are personal (verbal, emotional abuse) and social (bullying) forms of abuse that hinge on slander, lies, and manipulation to punish people or to otherwise assert power. Wanting to make sure that is not an issue is wanting to protect people. Right. But in this particular instance, we're talking about wanting to protect people from those they're harassing. This list is very clearly not being used to bully anyone, and part of my objection is with the kneejerk assumption that this must be what's going on, and that privileged white men aren't getting sufficient protection in their workplace. What I am saying is, rather than restricting our consideration to fringy concerns of how this list might harm white men (it doesn't), we should also (not even exclusively! -- just also) consider how it affects everyone else. [edited for formatting]

metaphorm 9y ago

> Why would so many of the HN comments jump to worrying about the false accusations, without paying any heed for the victims? you're connecting two points that are not naturally connected. caring about false accusations does not exclude caring about victims. additionally, some awareness of the current political climate is necessary for this discussion. false accusations have been weaponized in other contexts.

jlebar 9y ago
> false accusations have been weaponized in other contexts. I really think you are missing my point, sadly.
- metaphorm 9y ago
  what's your point then? maybe you're missing my point.
  - jlebar 9y ago
    My point is: > This trope of jumping immediately to the problem of false accusations is sadly common in discussions e.g. of rape reporting. Yes, some reports of rape (and harassment) are untrue. The vast majority aren't. Jumping so quickly, as many comments here have, to considering effects of fake reports is wildly disrespectful of the (largely female, and thus underrepresented here and at places like Google) victims, and is part of the reason that rape and sexual assault go underreported.
    - metaphorm 9y ago
      so I'm sure now that you're not understanding my point, which is that implementing a system that facilitates false accusations does significant harm and does not remedy the real actual problem of under-reporting to legal authorities. a victim of a crime should make a criminal complaint, and if he or she doesn't, then we should attempt to discover the reasons why not. however, anonymously accusing people of misconduct does absolutely nothing to assist those who have been wronged. it has significant potential for harm and creates a chilling effect and a culture of paranoia. what is the supposed benefit of anonymous accusations? is this intended to mitigate against future misconduct? why do you suppose it will accomplish that? my intuition on this is that those who are legitimately abusive will continue to be abusive (because they are already insensitive and not caring about how their actions impact others) and those that are only accidentally committing transgressions will now be subjected to ostracism because they could not adequately predict how their actions made in good faith will be perceived by others. additionally, let's consider the principles of due process and justice described in the U.S. constitution. the right to face your accuser. the right to expedient arbitration. the right to representation. the right to defend yourself without being presumed guilty. all of these principles of justice are lost with an anonymous accusation mailing list.