10 ms·

Zuckerberg-Backed Data Trove Exposes the Injustices of Criminal Justice

110 points by sprucely 9y ago

taxicabjesus 9y ago
I posted about some of my passengers' justice-induced traumas: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13286085 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13286085 Punishment is always counter-productive to correct the behavior of people who are "drowning": addicts, members of the under-class, children who've yet to fully mature (brain is still developing until 25 years), etc.
- omginternets 9y ago
  >brain is still developing until 25 years Careful, "developing" is very much a weasel word in these contexts. Brains are "developing" until death. That's very much their purpose: to change as a function of input. Also, "punishment" is a bit of a weasel word in this context. It's quite clear that some form of punishment is instrumental in the proper development of the brain, especially with regards to social norm. This holds even with people in the depths of despair. The issue is about whether we're actually punishing in a constructive way, and whether we're simultaneously extending a helping hand.
  - zepto 9y ago
    Careful, you might be being accurate but pedantic. Rather than picking at the parent poster, why not say what you think about the issue?
    - omginternets 9y ago
      Because I wanted to address this fallacious argument that appears over and over. In case I wasn't clear: I think any sensible policy has to include punitive measures, along with adequate support.
      - zepto 9y ago
        You were not clear. But now that you have been, how is this anything other than empty? Who would disagree other than some fictional absolutist?
        omginternets 9y ago
        >other than some fictional absolutist? Like the OP who claims that all punishment is problematic? >how is this anything other than empty? As you so astutely observed, I have nothing of substance to add to that part of the discussion. Where I do have something of substance to add is with respect to an oft-repeated factual error about brain development, and a broader misconception about the problems involved in punitive measurements. For someone worried about pedantry, you sure seem to be splitting hairs.
        zepto 9y ago
        Try reading the OP again and you will find no claim that all punishment is problematic.
      - taxicabjesus 9y ago
        > In case I wasn't clear: I think any sensible policy has to include punitive measures, along with adequate support. What sort of punitive measure is appropriate to use on someone whose doctor turned her into an alcoholic? What sort of punitive measures are appropriate for use on depressed people? "Sensible policy" would acknowledge that prison usually makes people's actual behavioral problems worse.
        omginternets 9y ago
        >"Sensible policy" would acknowledge that prison usually makes people's actual behavioral problems worse. Indeed. Prison is not the only form of punishment, and indeed it is not the most effective (in a large, if not overwhelming, majority of cases). I think if you stopped and caught your breath, you'd realize we're mostly in agreement.
- nickbauman 9y ago
  Thank you for posting this. Considering just Louisiana has the highest incarceration rate ON EARTH, we in the US have a long way to go to reform our criminal justice system.
Shivetya 9y ago
While I tend to start at the CATO blog I usually end up one of the sites they point too. Libertarian sites like CATO have always been interested in the abuse and injustice of the system. I know there are some knee jerk not fans of CATO but you really are missing out. to summarize our times the simple comic on this page illustrates how the system can threaten everyone https://www.cato.org/blog/when-our-rights-become-crimes https://www.cato.org/blog/when-our-rights-become-crimes even reason.com is good for much. still it comes down to reading all sides and you will see a common theme even they are coming at it from different directions. the thing to remember is government segregate us more than anyone else and politicians play off the fears of one group versus another to perpetuate the system. Favorite site for police issue and how preposterous the system is. https://www.policemisconduct.net/ https://www.policemisconduct.net/
- anigbrowl 9y ago
  I like Cato because while they're libertarian they're also sincere, ie they also stand up and take lumps for an open-borders immigration policy and call out institutional racism and so on. Most libertarian sites and writers, though, just offer anti-government claptrap on top of some shallow tropes of rugged individualism. If you want to find out how serious a libertarian is, make them tell you how they'd deal with the problem of crime, using real-world examples of vulnerable people and populations. I'm in favor of governance that maximises liberty, as outlined in the Declaration of Independence. People who say they want to abolish government are either living in a fantasy world or aim to set up an autocratic government of their own, sometimes both.
supernumerary 9y ago
"...the law cannot be reduced to the fact. Sadly, and in order to become more effective, but also in order to maintain a certain form of legitimacy, there is a tendency in law to rely on facts such as they are given, for instance, by economists, etc. It is becoming very difficult for law to keep its singular modes of enunciation and verification: the juridical regime of truth has nothing to do with the algorithmic or statistical regime of truth, or even the regime of truth in physics or in economics." The Digital Regime of Truth: From the Algorithmic Governmentality to a New Rule of Law https://iainmait.land/pdf/Rouvroy-Stiegler.pdf https://iainmait.land/pdf/Rouvroy-Stiegler.pdf
wyldfire 9y ago
This site [1] seems like a great complement to usafacts.org. It's great that these philanthropists are working on solutions to help us understand the empirical results of our policies and politicians. [1] https://measuresforjustice.org/portal/ https://measuresforjustice.org/portal/
- emodendroket 9y ago
  I wonder about USAFacts. When I checked it out there were a ton of financial figures over a period of decades that didn't seem to be inflation-adjusted, which I think is likely to totally mislead people.
  - graphememes 9y ago
    Could you expand on this a little bit for someone who isn't as familiar and might be prone to being mislead by it?
    - emodendroket 9y ago
      It's possible for an amount to be more in nominal dollars but less in real dollars if you don't adjust for inflation. If you had $20 in 1913 it would be equivalent to having almost 500 bucks today. Basically, it can look like spending on something has gone way up even if in reality it has gone down.
      - ptaipale 9y ago
        I think this is perfectly fine if the data just states whether the sums are in adjusted or nominal currency. Doing the conversion is an elementary school thing. And not even that: just type "1000 dollars in 1947" to Google, and you'll get a number of links that do the conversion. Sometimes it's the deceptive conversions that are a problem, so keeping in nominal sums helps with data integrity.
        emodendroket 9y ago
the_cat_kittles 9y ago
to me, the fact that david plouffe is working with zuckerberg removes an doubt (if there was any to begin with) that mark is going to run for president. he will be close to macron's age in 2020, though still younger. shares are trading at 25 cents on the dollar in a market predicting his presidential run: https://www.predictit.org/Contract/5534/Will-Facebook's-Mark-Zuckerberg-run-for-president-in-2020#data https://www.predictit.org/Contract/5534/Will-Facebook's-Mark... just sitting here thinking about him, im kinda torn. my first thought is that he is too young, and has too narrow a breadth of experience. it will be interesting to see how macron fares in france, maybe useful as a point of comparison. zuckerberg is utterly uncharismatic, which i think is a plus- it helps refocus things on issues and ideas and not personality. he is also competent, and not a criminal, or criminally intentioned as far as i can tell. i havent paid very close attention to him though, does it seem like he gives alot of thought to morality and justice? and, of course, it also seems very dangerous to give someone the presidency who controls so much of the media. i will say that the prospect of having a president with an intimate understanding of software dev would be great for modernizing lots of the agencies, which would really help i think. what do you guys think? i hadn't really thought about it too hard till now, but its obviously going to happen, so better to opine before the spin machines get going. edit: the replies here are totally kneejerk and thoughtless. it reminds me of how people seem react to anything new. i dont really give a shit about the guy but given that its a real possibility, its worth talking about, unless you think our current political state is good and we dont need to do anything.
- bicubic 9y ago
  At this point we need some kind of corporate blacklist of people like zuckerberg, page, and musk. And bar them from ever running for political office.
  - anigbrowl 9y ago
    That's ridiculous. He'd be more accountable in office than he is as CEO of the world's largest country. I mean, be skeptical of it by all means but banning people from running is just foolish.
659087 9y ago
I can't help but assume Zuckerberg's motive for supporting this has nothing to do with helping society, and everything to do with helping himself and his future campaign (and distracting people from Facebook's role in Trump's election).
- emodendroket 9y ago
  Who cares what his motive is?
  - 659087 9y ago
    I do, in case you missed that. I don't think we should be giving people credit for PR "philanthropy".
    - emodendroket 9y ago
      Very few people are saints but if the data is useful or interesting then I don't really care. I think probably most philanthropists have some motives besides altruism.
      - 659087 9y ago
        I'd prefer credit be given to the people actually doing the work. I think it's an insult to the people at Measures for Justice for Zuckerberg to be absorbing positive PR for their work.
        LeeHarveysGrave 9y ago
        The credit was given to Amy Bach repeatedly throughout the article, I'm not sure how you missed that. One of the many funding organizations happens to be funded by Mark Zuckerberg which makes for interest catching headlines but they're certainly not alone in funding the project. https://www.measuresforjustice.org/about/overview/ https://www.measuresforjustice.org/about/overview/ >Bach’s work has attracted the attention of the tech industry’s increasingly activist leadership. Earlier this year, Google.org awarded Measures for Justice a $1.5 million grant. Today, Mark Zuckerberg’s Chan Zuckerberg Initiative announced it is giving $6.5 million to the non-profit to help it expand into California.
joshuaheard 9y ago
This is interesting. I hope they are developing a standardized format (XML?) in which all local courts could publish their records. Rolling out such a system would be difficult.
- posterboy 9y ago
  XML? It's not very hard to parse texts for the necessarily present section titles. Codification of legalese and logical formulas on the other hand would not really be facilitated by xml, unless I miss something because I never used it.
jgamman 9y ago
this work was well underway before zuckerberg got involved yet the headline implies (suggests?) that it happened _because_ of zuckerberg. i'm torn; it smacks of getting your name associated with something good after it gets off the ground but it is allowing something good to continue. reminds me of VC funding mentality...
drtillberg 9y ago
Kudos to the court clerks who are making the public data available. So refreshing. On the other hand, in Massachusetts, progressive in so many ways, the clerks treat court databases as proprietary and unavailable to be copied. And the data on the criminal side, practically under lock and key. It's a big impediment even to getting started examining the nuts and bolts of the justice system as this project has done.

110 points by sprucely 9y ago

I posted about some of my passengers' justice-induced traumas: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13286085 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13286085 Punishment is always counter-productive to correct the behavior of people who are "drowning": addicts, members of the under-class, children who've yet to fully mature (brain is still developing until 25 years), etc.

omginternets 9y ago
>brain is still developing until 25 years Careful, "developing" is very much a weasel word in these contexts. Brains are "developing" until death. That's very much their purpose: to change as a function of input. Also, "punishment" is a bit of a weasel word in this context. It's quite clear that some form of punishment is instrumental in the proper development of the brain, especially with regards to social norm. This holds even with people in the depths of despair. The issue is about whether we're actually punishing in a constructive way, and whether we're simultaneously extending a helping hand.
- zepto 9y ago
  Careful, you might be being accurate but pedantic. Rather than picking at the parent poster, why not say what you think about the issue?
  - omginternets 9y ago
    Because I wanted to address this fallacious argument that appears over and over. In case I wasn't clear: I think any sensible policy has to include punitive measures, along with adequate support.
    - zepto 9y ago
      You were not clear. But now that you have been, how is this anything other than empty? Who would disagree other than some fictional absolutist?
      - omginternets 9y ago
        >other than some fictional absolutist? Like the OP who claims that all punishment is problematic? >how is this anything other than empty? As you so astutely observed, I have nothing of substance to add to that part of the discussion. Where I do have something of substance to add is with respect to an oft-repeated factual error about brain development, and a broader misconception about the problems involved in punitive measurements. For someone worried about pedantry, you sure seem to be splitting hairs.
        zepto 9y ago
        Try reading the OP again and you will find no claim that all punishment is problematic.
    - taxicabjesus 9y ago
      > In case I wasn't clear: I think any sensible policy has to include punitive measures, along with adequate support. What sort of punitive measure is appropriate to use on someone whose doctor turned her into an alcoholic? What sort of punitive measures are appropriate for use on depressed people? "Sensible policy" would acknowledge that prison usually makes people's actual behavioral problems worse.
      - omginternets 9y ago
        >"Sensible policy" would acknowledge that prison usually makes people's actual behavioral problems worse. Indeed. Prison is not the only form of punishment, and indeed it is not the most effective (in a large, if not overwhelming, majority of cases). I think if you stopped and caught your breath, you'd realize we're mostly in agreement.
nickbauman 9y ago
Thank you for posting this. Considering just Louisiana has the highest incarceration rate ON EARTH, we in the US have a long way to go to reform our criminal justice system.

Shivetya 9y ago

While I tend to start at the CATO blog I usually end up one of the sites they point too. Libertarian sites like CATO have always been interested in the abuse and injustice of the system. I know there are some knee jerk not fans of CATO but you really are missing out. to summarize our times the simple comic on this page illustrates how the system can threaten everyone https://www.cato.org/blog/when-our-rights-become-crimes https://www.cato.org/blog/when-our-rights-become-crimes even reason.com is good for much. still it comes down to reading all sides and you will see a common theme even they are coming at it from different directions. the thing to remember is government segregate us more than anyone else and politicians play off the fears of one group versus another to perpetuate the system. Favorite site for police issue and how preposterous the system is. https://www.policemisconduct.net/ https://www.policemisconduct.net/

anigbrowl 9y ago
I like Cato because while they're libertarian they're also sincere, ie they also stand up and take lumps for an open-borders immigration policy and call out institutional racism and so on. Most libertarian sites and writers, though, just offer anti-government claptrap on top of some shallow tropes of rugged individualism. If you want to find out how serious a libertarian is, make them tell you how they'd deal with the problem of crime, using real-world examples of vulnerable people and populations. I'm in favor of governance that maximises liberty, as outlined in the Declaration of Independence. People who say they want to abolish government are either living in a fantasy world or aim to set up an autocratic government of their own, sometimes both.

supernumerary 9y ago

"...the law cannot be reduced to the fact. Sadly, and in order to become more effective, but also in order to maintain a certain form of legitimacy, there is a tendency in law to rely on facts such as they are given, for instance, by economists, etc. It is becoming very difficult for law to keep its singular modes of enunciation and verification: the juridical regime of truth has nothing to do with the algorithmic or statistical regime of truth, or even the regime of truth in physics or in economics." The Digital Regime of Truth: From the Algorithmic Governmentality to a New Rule of Law https://iainmait.land/pdf/Rouvroy-Stiegler.pdf https://iainmait.land/pdf/Rouvroy-Stiegler.pdf

wyldfire 9y ago

This site [1] seems like a great complement to usafacts.org. It's great that these philanthropists are working on solutions to help us understand the empirical results of our policies and politicians. [1] https://measuresforjustice.org/portal/ https://measuresforjustice.org/portal/

emodendroket 9y ago
I wonder about USAFacts. When I checked it out there were a ton of financial figures over a period of decades that didn't seem to be inflation-adjusted, which I think is likely to totally mislead people.
- graphememes 9y ago
  Could you expand on this a little bit for someone who isn't as familiar and might be prone to being mislead by it?
  - emodendroket 9y ago
    It's possible for an amount to be more in nominal dollars but less in real dollars if you don't adjust for inflation. If you had $20 in 1913 it would be equivalent to having almost 500 bucks today. Basically, it can look like spending on something has gone way up even if in reality it has gone down.
    - ptaipale 9y ago
      I think this is perfectly fine if the data just states whether the sums are in adjusted or nominal currency. Doing the conversion is an elementary school thing. And not even that: just type "1000 dollars in 1947" to Google, and you'll get a number of links that do the conversion. Sometimes it's the deceptive conversions that are a problem, so keeping in nominal sums helps with data integrity.
      - emodendroket 9y ago

the_cat_kittles 9y ago

to me, the fact that david plouffe is working with zuckerberg removes an doubt (if there was any to begin with) that mark is going to run for president. he will be close to macron's age in 2020, though still younger. shares are trading at 25 cents on the dollar in a market predicting his presidential run: https://www.predictit.org/Contract/5534/Will-Facebook's-Mark-Zuckerberg-run-for-president-in-2020#data https://www.predictit.org/Contract/5534/Will-Facebook's-Mark... just sitting here thinking about him, im kinda torn. my first thought is that he is too young, and has too narrow a breadth of experience. it will be interesting to see how macron fares in france, maybe useful as a point of comparison. zuckerberg is utterly uncharismatic, which i think is a plus- it helps refocus things on issues and ideas and not personality. he is also competent, and not a criminal, or criminally intentioned as far as i can tell. i havent paid very close attention to him though, does it seem like he gives alot of thought to morality and justice? and, of course, it also seems very dangerous to give someone the presidency who controls so much of the media. i will say that the prospect of having a president with an intimate understanding of software dev would be great for modernizing lots of the agencies, which would really help i think. what do you guys think? i hadn't really thought about it too hard till now, but its obviously going to happen, so better to opine before the spin machines get going. edit: the replies here are totally kneejerk and thoughtless. it reminds me of how people seem react to anything new. i dont really give a shit about the guy but given that its a real possibility, its worth talking about, unless you think our current political state is good and we dont need to do anything.

bicubic 9y ago
At this point we need some kind of corporate blacklist of people like zuckerberg, page, and musk. And bar them from ever running for political office.
- anigbrowl 9y ago
  That's ridiculous. He'd be more accountable in office than he is as CEO of the world's largest country. I mean, be skeptical of it by all means but banning people from running is just foolish.

659087 9y ago

I can't help but assume Zuckerberg's motive for supporting this has nothing to do with helping society, and everything to do with helping himself and his future campaign (and distracting people from Facebook's role in Trump's election).

emodendroket 9y ago
Who cares what his motive is?
- 659087 9y ago
  I do, in case you missed that. I don't think we should be giving people credit for PR "philanthropy".
  - emodendroket 9y ago
    Very few people are saints but if the data is useful or interesting then I don't really care. I think probably most philanthropists have some motives besides altruism.
    - 659087 9y ago
      I'd prefer credit be given to the people actually doing the work. I think it's an insult to the people at Measures for Justice for Zuckerberg to be absorbing positive PR for their work.
      - LeeHarveysGrave 9y ago
        The credit was given to Amy Bach repeatedly throughout the article, I'm not sure how you missed that. One of the many funding organizations happens to be funded by Mark Zuckerberg which makes for interest catching headlines but they're certainly not alone in funding the project. https://www.measuresforjustice.org/about/overview/ https://www.measuresforjustice.org/about/overview/ >Bach’s work has attracted the attention of the tech industry’s increasingly activist leadership. Earlier this year, Google.org awarded Measures for Justice a $1.5 million grant. Today, Mark Zuckerberg’s Chan Zuckerberg Initiative announced it is giving $6.5 million to the non-profit to help it expand into California.

joshuaheard 9y ago

This is interesting. I hope they are developing a standardized format (XML?) in which all local courts could publish their records. Rolling out such a system would be difficult.

posterboy 9y ago
XML? It's not very hard to parse texts for the necessarily present section titles. Codification of legalese and logical formulas on the other hand would not really be facilitated by xml, unless I miss something because I never used it.

jgamman 9y ago

this work was well underway before zuckerberg got involved yet the headline implies (suggests?) that it happened _because_ of zuckerberg. i'm torn; it smacks of getting your name associated with something good after it gets off the ground but it is allowing something good to continue. reminds me of VC funding mentality...

drtillberg 9y ago

Kudos to the court clerks who are making the public data available. So refreshing. On the other hand, in Massachusetts, progressive in so many ways, the clerks treat court databases as proprietary and unavailable to be copied. And the data on the criminal side, practically under lock and key. It's a big impediment even to getting started examining the nuts and bolts of the justice system as this project has done.