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- A female employee was allegedly called a “princess” for favoring salad over burgers. I imagine the guy that delivered that comment would be hard pushed to fi

- A female employee was allegedly called a “princess” for favoring salad over burgers. I imagine the guy that delivered that comment would be hard pushed to figure out what he did wrong. I suppose we all have to really careful what we say.

to3m 9y ago
Hmm. I'm actually struggling to think of a situation where it would be the done thing to call one of your colleagues "princess", be they male or female.
- jschwartzi 9y ago
  If you know them well enough that they understand that you're joking, then it's probably okay. If you're not sure, then don't. I do have female friends at the office who might find that funny, but only because we know each other and we give each other as good as we get. The difference is that we are friends not just colleagues, which is on a different level, interpersonally.
  - ant6n 9y ago
    I feel like I would prefer a more professional work environment, even if it's less funny.
    - axlprose 9y ago
      Unfortunately, the problem with "professional" relationships is that they're not very good at fulfilling the social needs of humans. It's practical to keep things professional in order to avoid drama, but when you work all day and work is the main place you get to interact with other people, it can get a bit depressing. And this is partially the reason why things like "company culture" and "culture-fit" come about, but obviously it's a hard and tricky problem to solve.
      - jschwartzi 9y ago
        Yes. I don't really fit in at places where I don't have some kind of personal relationship with my co-workers. We don't stand in front of the whole office and make fun of each other, but when we're at lunch or in private we do play a little. Expecting people to robotically conform to an idealized notion of "professionalism" creates sterile workplaces. You spend enough time with someone and you will eventually become friends with them, co-worker or not.
      - watwut 9y ago
        Then again, workplace is not meant to fulfill your social needs as a human. People who are fun to socialize with and people who are pleasant to work with are very different people. One can be fun and pleasant friend while not so reliable college. Professionalism is what allows you to work together despite being very different people with different interests and personalities. Fun workplaces tend to discriminate against those who are different on personal level regardless of their actual skills and contributions.
        axlprose 9y ago
        > workplace is not meant to fulfill your social needs as a human It's not, but when it takes up the majority of your waking life at ~60-80hrs/wk, it's not an unreasonable expectation, especially for the mental well-being of the workers. And so long as the trend continues towards longer work hours, there really doesn't seem to be much of a humane way to deal with that added stress otherwise, despite all the obvious drawbacks you mentioned. The ideal of course, would be to shorten the workday. Unfortunately, inertia seems to be working very much against that possible solution.
        watwut 9y ago
        If it takes 60-80hrs/wk, then you need a better workplace regardless of nature of communication. Unless you plan to live like monk (meaning no family no friends out of work) - beware tho, monks have pretty much guaranteed membership for life you do not. Yes, my observation is the same - the people who spend 60-80hrs at work do take all their socialization into workplace. Meaning they waste time of people who want to work at work and then go home - either because of kids or because of aging relative or because of anything else including hobbies. The above is one more reason to avoid fun cultural workplaces. They tend to want all of you, not just your work.
    - watwut 9y ago
      I wonder why this was downvoted. I have the same preference.
- masklinn 9y ago
  If they are a genuine princess (not necessarily outlandish if you live in a place which 1. still has royalty and 2. has a pretty down-to-earth one — after all we've recently learned Willem-Alexander of the Netherlands moonlights as a commercial co-pilot) — or if they come to work wearing a tiara, or if they ask you?
  - to3m 9y ago
    But when you're talking to a princess you would typically use the form Your Highness, or similar. Anyway, I was thinking of the sorts of situations that actually turn up, on average, for most people. There are only so many princesses to go round, a tiara is highly unusual office garb, and I've never heard of anybody asking to be called "princess" in a professional capacity, at least not in white collar work such as Google. I stand by my rule of thumb. My difficulty thinking up situations was based on my experiences of being at work, which are of course unique, but not, I suspect, especially unusual. (But if we're trying to think of unlikely possibilities, what about if Princess is your colleague's name? Though given your reply, I expect you're the sort of pedantic so-and-so who'd actually notice that I deliberately quoted it in lower case to sidestep this one.)
    - detaro 9y ago
      Google has a security manager with the title of "Security Princess": https://twitter.com/laparisa https://twitter.com/laparisa (but yes, clearly exceptional case)
- mcgrath_sh 9y ago
  We played Mario Kart at our office Christmas party. My colleague was racing as Princess Peach. I made a remark saying "Princess Peach over here..." Other than that, I cannot think of a single place that is appropriate.
sacheendra 9y ago
Can you explain specifically whats wrong with the comment. This could be making fun of a friend. How is this harassment?
- camus2 9y ago
  > Can you explain specifically whats wrong with the comment. Obviously casual sexism. Friend or not that's not professional to call a colleague that way at the workplace.
  - pythonaut_16 9y ago
    If it's a friend there's probably some flexibility depending on the context of the friendship. But if the "friend" feels the need to file a complaint rather than talk to the person about it then clearly the comment wasn't appropriate.
    - jaclaz 9y ago
      ... or it was simply misunderstood/taken the "wrong" way by someone particularly touchy. I can understand most of the listed complains, but both the "princess" reference and the one about the hairdressers sending supposedly racists code messages sound more like if some problems are also somehow with the people that complained.
      - DanBC 9y ago
        > by someone particularly touchy. No. It's okay to say this to someone you know well and who you know won't mind. But the default position is "don't say this", and so the people who have a strong negative response to it are not "particularly touchy", they're normal.
        asddqweqweqwe 9y ago
        No, people who get offended are "particularly touchy" because they lack the well-adjusted skills of an adult and act like children. No one is arguing at your right to be offended, what people hate is that not only can this person clearly not talk this out with someone - they need to go to a public shaming list. IMO it's a form of virtue signaling. I doubt this person is actually offended, but the local SJW group told them they need to be to be seen as progressive.
nerdponx 9y ago
It all depends on the context. But yes, we all have to be really careful what we say. Not for fear of being shamed -- for fear of offending someone! Calling someone a "princess" for liking salads could easily be taken as an offense, gender aside. It's the same reason you don't just go around talking politics in the officf. Keep that kind of dialogue out of the workplace.
- Chris2048 9y ago
  > Keep that kind of dialogue out of the workplace. Or freely leave until you find a place that's cool.
  - d3ad1ysp0rk 9y ago
    "Cool" for me isn't somewhere that I can say anything I want without concern for how it affects others. Cool is inclusive.
    - Chris2048 9y ago
      But that's a strawman, since I didn't say that. You talk of vague "inclusivity", and hyperbolic "say anything I want"; but the post specifically referred to "Calling someone a 'princess' for liking salads" - when are we going to be inclusive of differing opinions and forms of expression? Seems a very specific interpretational framework is being mandated here. Using rough language versus running off to HR when offended - I know who I'd prefer working with.
      - nerdponx 9y ago
        There are so many other/better ways to question someone's taste, even in jest. This is also why I originally said it depends on the context. You can say it to a work buddy who you hang out with after hours. You can't say it to someone from another team who you don't know very well. Use your head.
        9y ago
jmngomes 9y ago
It looks simple to me: that remark was not professional, it's something you'd say to a friend, ideally one with whom you share a relationship close enough to allow for remarks like that one. If you stick to professional interactions, you'll hardly create such a problem at a workplace. The hardship begins when personal and professional relationships mix, but if a personal relationship is established it's reasonable to assume that both people should know how to deal with eachother and would have cleared this up between themselves. If HR was involved, it's because someone was out of line or just doesn't understand how adults manage boundaries, in which case he should be warned and, if the case merits, punished.
- Chris2048 9y ago
  Some companies purposely have a laid-back culture. Not a 'bro' culture, but a friendly, social one - that includes jabbing and jiving. I love those beanbag-chair, not corp environments. Not everything that isn't corporate is 'unprofessional'. Wearing trainers to work was unprofessional, until it became established; now tech CEOs compete on who has the most expensive sneakers. > If HR was involved, it's because someone was out of line or just doesn't understand how adults manage boundaries, in which case he should be warned and, if the case merits, punished. I assume you mean the person who said it? It's also possible the person who reported it doesn't know how to manage relationships, or had some other motive in reporting this to HR - you can speculate either way.
  - scandox 9y ago
    I dunno maybe I'm crazy but "jabbing and jiving" is the last thing I ever want at work. Directness, professionalism and - yes! - impersonal conversation - is what I would generally prefer. And as for competitive dressing. Bring back uniforms is all I can say to that. Edit: grammar
    - anothercomment 9y ago
      The great thing is that there is more than one company, so people can choose their preferred environment. I suspect there are still many businesses were uniforms are the norm, so you can apply to one of those. You can wear your uniform, but you don't have to make all companies uniform.
auserperson 9y ago
It's unprofessional. If the person who was called princess felt uncomfortable enough to write about it, it indicates they were not friends and this is not their common relationship. It's can be a disrespectful joke. Besides, it's a gendered joke. If it was directed to a woman, it's very impolite, given the constant pressure on woman to keep thin in society and how that is a frequent bias towards woman. If it was a man, it sounds very transphobic/homophobic, as in "you're less because you act like a woman", besides man also deals with fat shaming. And a lot of people deal with eating disorders, so making fun of people eating choices at work is not a good idea. Of course, if they were friends, I mean actual friends. It would be fine. If one person had felt offended, they would be able to say that to the other, instead of an anonymous mailing list. Or if they didn't felt offended, they could laugh together and each to it's own. But it's clearly not the case. So it's a good idea to avoid this sort of behavior to people that you don't know well, even you get along with them in a work environment. If people feel they need a guideline to avoid this behavior and not feel like they need to be hard pushed to figure out what they did wrong, here it is: you can make this sort of joke to someone who is your friend (friend enough to regularly see each other outside of work, take care of each other kids, trust in each other in personal matters), if not, it's not work appropriate.

to3m 9y ago

Hmm. I'm actually struggling to think of a situation where it would be the done thing to call one of your colleagues "princess", be they male or female.

jschwartzi 9y ago
If you know them well enough that they understand that you're joking, then it's probably okay. If you're not sure, then don't. I do have female friends at the office who might find that funny, but only because we know each other and we give each other as good as we get. The difference is that we are friends not just colleagues, which is on a different level, interpersonally.
- ant6n 9y ago
  I feel like I would prefer a more professional work environment, even if it's less funny.
  - axlprose 9y ago
    Unfortunately, the problem with "professional" relationships is that they're not very good at fulfilling the social needs of humans. It's practical to keep things professional in order to avoid drama, but when you work all day and work is the main place you get to interact with other people, it can get a bit depressing. And this is partially the reason why things like "company culture" and "culture-fit" come about, but obviously it's a hard and tricky problem to solve.
    - jschwartzi 9y ago
      Yes. I don't really fit in at places where I don't have some kind of personal relationship with my co-workers. We don't stand in front of the whole office and make fun of each other, but when we're at lunch or in private we do play a little. Expecting people to robotically conform to an idealized notion of "professionalism" creates sterile workplaces. You spend enough time with someone and you will eventually become friends with them, co-worker or not.
    - watwut 9y ago
      Then again, workplace is not meant to fulfill your social needs as a human. People who are fun to socialize with and people who are pleasant to work with are very different people. One can be fun and pleasant friend while not so reliable college. Professionalism is what allows you to work together despite being very different people with different interests and personalities. Fun workplaces tend to discriminate against those who are different on personal level regardless of their actual skills and contributions.
      - axlprose 9y ago
        > workplace is not meant to fulfill your social needs as a human It's not, but when it takes up the majority of your waking life at ~60-80hrs/wk, it's not an unreasonable expectation, especially for the mental well-being of the workers. And so long as the trend continues towards longer work hours, there really doesn't seem to be much of a humane way to deal with that added stress otherwise, despite all the obvious drawbacks you mentioned. The ideal of course, would be to shorten the workday. Unfortunately, inertia seems to be working very much against that possible solution.
        watwut 9y ago
        If it takes 60-80hrs/wk, then you need a better workplace regardless of nature of communication. Unless you plan to live like monk (meaning no family no friends out of work) - beware tho, monks have pretty much guaranteed membership for life you do not. Yes, my observation is the same - the people who spend 60-80hrs at work do take all their socialization into workplace. Meaning they waste time of people who want to work at work and then go home - either because of kids or because of aging relative or because of anything else including hobbies. The above is one more reason to avoid fun cultural workplaces. They tend to want all of you, not just your work.
  - watwut 9y ago
    I wonder why this was downvoted. I have the same preference.
masklinn 9y ago
If they are a genuine princess (not necessarily outlandish if you live in a place which 1. still has royalty and 2. has a pretty down-to-earth one — after all we've recently learned Willem-Alexander of the Netherlands moonlights as a commercial co-pilot) — or if they come to work wearing a tiara, or if they ask you?
- to3m 9y ago
  But when you're talking to a princess you would typically use the form Your Highness, or similar. Anyway, I was thinking of the sorts of situations that actually turn up, on average, for most people. There are only so many princesses to go round, a tiara is highly unusual office garb, and I've never heard of anybody asking to be called "princess" in a professional capacity, at least not in white collar work such as Google. I stand by my rule of thumb. My difficulty thinking up situations was based on my experiences of being at work, which are of course unique, but not, I suspect, especially unusual. (But if we're trying to think of unlikely possibilities, what about if Princess is your colleague's name? Though given your reply, I expect you're the sort of pedantic so-and-so who'd actually notice that I deliberately quoted it in lower case to sidestep this one.)
  - detaro 9y ago
    Google has a security manager with the title of "Security Princess": https://twitter.com/laparisa https://twitter.com/laparisa (but yes, clearly exceptional case)
mcgrath_sh 9y ago
We played Mario Kart at our office Christmas party. My colleague was racing as Princess Peach. I made a remark saying "Princess Peach over here..." Other than that, I cannot think of a single place that is appropriate.

sacheendra 9y ago

Can you explain specifically whats wrong with the comment. This could be making fun of a friend. How is this harassment?

camus2 9y ago
> Can you explain specifically whats wrong with the comment. Obviously casual sexism. Friend or not that's not professional to call a colleague that way at the workplace.
- pythonaut_16 9y ago
  If it's a friend there's probably some flexibility depending on the context of the friendship. But if the "friend" feels the need to file a complaint rather than talk to the person about it then clearly the comment wasn't appropriate.
  - jaclaz 9y ago
    ... or it was simply misunderstood/taken the "wrong" way by someone particularly touchy. I can understand most of the listed complains, but both the "princess" reference and the one about the hairdressers sending supposedly racists code messages sound more like if some problems are also somehow with the people that complained.
    - DanBC 9y ago
      > by someone particularly touchy. No. It's okay to say this to someone you know well and who you know won't mind. But the default position is "don't say this", and so the people who have a strong negative response to it are not "particularly touchy", they're normal.
      - asddqweqweqwe 9y ago
        No, people who get offended are "particularly touchy" because they lack the well-adjusted skills of an adult and act like children. No one is arguing at your right to be offended, what people hate is that not only can this person clearly not talk this out with someone - they need to go to a public shaming list. IMO it's a form of virtue signaling. I doubt this person is actually offended, but the local SJW group told them they need to be to be seen as progressive.

nerdponx 9y ago

It all depends on the context. But yes, we all have to be really careful what we say. Not for fear of being shamed -- for fear of offending someone! Calling someone a "princess" for liking salads could easily be taken as an offense, gender aside. It's the same reason you don't just go around talking politics in the officf. Keep that kind of dialogue out of the workplace.

Chris2048 9y ago
> Keep that kind of dialogue out of the workplace. Or freely leave until you find a place that's cool.
- d3ad1ysp0rk 9y ago
  "Cool" for me isn't somewhere that I can say anything I want without concern for how it affects others. Cool is inclusive.
  - Chris2048 9y ago
    But that's a strawman, since I didn't say that. You talk of vague "inclusivity", and hyperbolic "say anything I want"; but the post specifically referred to "Calling someone a 'princess' for liking salads" - when are we going to be inclusive of differing opinions and forms of expression? Seems a very specific interpretational framework is being mandated here. Using rough language versus running off to HR when offended - I know who I'd prefer working with.
    - nerdponx 9y ago
      There are so many other/better ways to question someone's taste, even in jest. This is also why I originally said it depends on the context. You can say it to a work buddy who you hang out with after hours. You can't say it to someone from another team who you don't know very well. Use your head.
      - 9y ago

jmngomes 9y ago

It looks simple to me: that remark was not professional, it's something you'd say to a friend, ideally one with whom you share a relationship close enough to allow for remarks like that one. If you stick to professional interactions, you'll hardly create such a problem at a workplace. The hardship begins when personal and professional relationships mix, but if a personal relationship is established it's reasonable to assume that both people should know how to deal with eachother and would have cleared this up between themselves. If HR was involved, it's because someone was out of line or just doesn't understand how adults manage boundaries, in which case he should be warned and, if the case merits, punished.

Chris2048 9y ago
Some companies purposely have a laid-back culture. Not a 'bro' culture, but a friendly, social one - that includes jabbing and jiving. I love those beanbag-chair, not corp environments. Not everything that isn't corporate is 'unprofessional'. Wearing trainers to work was unprofessional, until it became established; now tech CEOs compete on who has the most expensive sneakers. > If HR was involved, it's because someone was out of line or just doesn't understand how adults manage boundaries, in which case he should be warned and, if the case merits, punished. I assume you mean the person who said it? It's also possible the person who reported it doesn't know how to manage relationships, or had some other motive in reporting this to HR - you can speculate either way.
- scandox 9y ago
  I dunno maybe I'm crazy but "jabbing and jiving" is the last thing I ever want at work. Directness, professionalism and - yes! - impersonal conversation - is what I would generally prefer. And as for competitive dressing. Bring back uniforms is all I can say to that. Edit: grammar
  - anothercomment 9y ago
    The great thing is that there is more than one company, so people can choose their preferred environment. I suspect there are still many businesses were uniforms are the norm, so you can apply to one of those. You can wear your uniform, but you don't have to make all companies uniform.

auserperson 9y ago

It's unprofessional. If the person who was called princess felt uncomfortable enough to write about it, it indicates they were not friends and this is not their common relationship. It's can be a disrespectful joke. Besides, it's a gendered joke. If it was directed to a woman, it's very impolite, given the constant pressure on woman to keep thin in society and how that is a frequent bias towards woman. If it was a man, it sounds very transphobic/homophobic, as in "you're less because you act like a woman", besides man also deals with fat shaming. And a lot of people deal with eating disorders, so making fun of people eating choices at work is not a good idea. Of course, if they were friends, I mean actual friends. It would be fine. If one person had felt offended, they would be able to say that to the other, instead of an anonymous mailing list. Or if they didn't felt offended, they could laugh together and each to it's own. But it's clearly not the case. So it's a good idea to avoid this sort of behavior to people that you don't know well, even you get along with them in a work environment. If people feel they need a guideline to avoid this behavior and not feel like they need to be hard pushed to figure out what they did wrong, here it is: you can make this sort of joke to someone who is your friend (friend enough to regularly see each other outside of work, take care of each other kids, trust in each other in personal matters), if not, it's not work appropriate.