4 ms·

It's push back against the toxic strands of SJW culture that have gone from "diversity is good" to "white culure is bad". It's a small but very vocal branch of

It's push back against the toxic strands of SJW culture that have gone from "diversity is good" to "white culure is bad". It's a small but very vocal branch of SJWs against a small and very vocal branch of counter SJWs, but both sides of it are in a meme war (using the scientific definition of meme: a mechanism to transfer ideas and culture) and the effects of their culture clashes are large enough for you and I to notice.

tacomonstrous 9y ago
Is it really so toxic to point out that the average white male in American society enjoys certain privileges that are unavailable to the average member of any other class? Or that the average black male is subject to multiple disadvantages that members of other classes don't usually experience? Also, the use of the term SJW might appear 'edgy' but its overuse has turned it into a marker of nothing but intellectual vapidity.
- tasty_freeze 9y ago
  There is a significant number of people who vehemently disagree with what you (rightly) suggest should be an obvious truth. For them, the only racism is against white people, and that "minorities" (for whichever subgroup they care to categorize) have it easy.
- flukus 9y ago
  > Is it really so toxic to point out that the average white male in American society enjoys certain privileges that are unavailable to the average member of any other class? Yes, it's divisive and helps no one, that's pretty much the definition of toxic.
  - tacomonstrous 9y ago
    >Yes, it's divisive and helps no one, that's pretty much the definition of toxic. I cannot even imagine the level of delusion and denial that underlies that statement.
    - flukus 9y ago
      This might surprise you but not all white people are average. Many come from distinctly disadvantaged backgrounds and get offended hearing you talk about how privileged they are.
      - falsedan 9y ago
        Yeah Mr. Monstrous, can't you tone down the incessant reminding of their preferred status in society?
  - dragonwriter 9y ago
    It's factually accurate, and recognizing that fact helps lots of people.
    - flukus 9y ago
      And it hinders a lot more because it pre-supposes that race is the root cause for a lot of social ills when it's really things like lack of access to education, which hurts poor white, black and end everything in between people. It also get's used to diminish the accomplishments of many white people that did not have privileged backgrounds.
      - rosser 9y ago
        Pointing out the uncontroversial fact that the average black man faces challenges which the average white man doesn't diminishes the white man's accomplishment's ... how, again?
        flukus 9y ago
        Because it gets used to paint a picture where white people are only successful because they were somehow privileged, which isn't always true. It's really quite racist actually, you are using skin color as the defining characteristic when socioeconomic status is far more relevant.
        rosser 9y ago
        It gets "used" to "paint" that picture by people who are opposed to the concept. The notion of "privilege", as it's used in academic "social justice" work (and by pretty much everyone I've ever heard from or spoken with who takes "non-toxic" "SJW" values to heart) specifically accounts for that. (You may not hear about it from the latter, because they're probably sick to fucking death of hearing the same complaint, premised in a complete misunderstanding of the whole concept, from people — usually, surprise!, white men — over and over again. Wouldn't you be?) But it's so much easier to rail against the straw-man version of a concept that confirms your biases, right? EDIT: phrasing. And some "This again?" eye-roll. Sorry: not sorry.
- toxic-prevenger 9y ago
  No, but it is incredibly silly to believe that your notions of class and privilege are anything but extremely leaky abstractions that are insufficient to use to reason about the individuals they try to cover. It's the basic fallacy of the social theorist disciplines.
- ryanx435 9y ago
  You could point out other advantages that acrew to tall people, fit people, athletic people, rich people, beautiful people, young people, edycated people, etc etc etc And the disadvantages faced by short people, fat people, non athletic people, poor people, ugly people, old people, uneducated people, etc etc etc. My point being that everyone faces a different set of advantages and disadvantages that other people and classes either can't benefit from or prosper from.
- Sacho 9y ago
  Well, there's two issues I would have with your statement. The first is that "pointing out" is not where the story ends; like parent said, there is a small minority of people who use this "average man"(an amalgamation of features that doesn't actually exist in reality) to shame specific individuals(e.g. calling out novel authors for being "privileged" and thus shouldn't write characters with a different skin colour). This usage opens you up to an obvious reciprocal attack you would probably object to - one could point out that the average black person is much more likely to be arrested(https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2015/crime-in-the-u.s.-2015/tables/table-43 https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2015/crime-in-the-u.s.-...) and use this to call specific black people "dangerous". In both cases, you are prejudging based on a stereotype. The second objection is that once you start to delve into the "privileges", the label just doesn't seem to fit the actual things being described. Actually searching for "white male privileges" leads me to articles that are so easy to fight that I feel like I'd be addressing a strawman[0][1][2], so if possible, could you provide a list? My general contention is that the lists of "privileges" end up being a mix of: significant outcome benefits which have controversial correlation-not-causation interpretations(e.g. is blacks being arrested more "white privilege" or simply the amalgamated effect of high poverty, low education and latent racism?); things you would not really describe as "privileges" but simply different choices(e.g. men having longer careers due to spending less family time); things that are incredibly petty("I can if I wish arrange to be in the company of people of my race most of the time." from [0]) [0] - http://www.winnipeg.ca/clerks/boards/citizenequity/pdfs/white_privilege.pdf http://www.winnipeg.ca/clerks/boards/citizenequity/pdfs/whit... [1] - http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/11/lessons-white-privilege-poc/ http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/11/lessons-white-privilege-... [2] - http://www.care2.com/causes/what-exactly-is-white-privilege-here-are-7-examples.html http://www.care2.com/causes/what-exactly-is-white-privilege-...
- yorwba 9y ago
  See it like this: You know how the other side has those incredibly stupid people who can't even make a coherent argument, tout a blog post as a credible source and react to rational argument with insults and threats? Well, your side has them, too. If you care about social issues, they are toxic SJWs. If you are a patriot, they are white supremacists. If you are a Muslim, they are Islamist terrorists. Arguments are not soldiers [0]. Don't let a disagreement turn into a war. If you see someone support a cause you care about, but for the wrong reasons; and do so in a manner that alienates anyone who disagrees, you should call them out on it. [0] http://lesswrong.com/lw/gz/policy_debates_should_not_appear_onesided/ http://lesswrong.com/lw/gz/policy_debates_should_not_appear_...
- bd3vani 9y ago
  Amen.

tacomonstrous 9y ago

Is it really so toxic to point out that the average white male in American society enjoys certain privileges that are unavailable to the average member of any other class? Or that the average black male is subject to multiple disadvantages that members of other classes don't usually experience? Also, the use of the term SJW might appear 'edgy' but its overuse has turned it into a marker of nothing but intellectual vapidity.

tasty_freeze 9y ago
There is a significant number of people who vehemently disagree with what you (rightly) suggest should be an obvious truth. For them, the only racism is against white people, and that "minorities" (for whichever subgroup they care to categorize) have it easy.
flukus 9y ago
> Is it really so toxic to point out that the average white male in American society enjoys certain privileges that are unavailable to the average member of any other class? Yes, it's divisive and helps no one, that's pretty much the definition of toxic.
- tacomonstrous 9y ago
  >Yes, it's divisive and helps no one, that's pretty much the definition of toxic. I cannot even imagine the level of delusion and denial that underlies that statement.
  - flukus 9y ago
    This might surprise you but not all white people are average. Many come from distinctly disadvantaged backgrounds and get offended hearing you talk about how privileged they are.
    - falsedan 9y ago
      Yeah Mr. Monstrous, can't you tone down the incessant reminding of their preferred status in society?
- dragonwriter 9y ago
  It's factually accurate, and recognizing that fact helps lots of people.
  - flukus 9y ago
    And it hinders a lot more because it pre-supposes that race is the root cause for a lot of social ills when it's really things like lack of access to education, which hurts poor white, black and end everything in between people. It also get's used to diminish the accomplishments of many white people that did not have privileged backgrounds.
    - rosser 9y ago
      Pointing out the uncontroversial fact that the average black man faces challenges which the average white man doesn't diminishes the white man's accomplishment's ... how, again?
      - flukus 9y ago
        Because it gets used to paint a picture where white people are only successful because they were somehow privileged, which isn't always true. It's really quite racist actually, you are using skin color as the defining characteristic when socioeconomic status is far more relevant.
        rosser 9y ago
        It gets "used" to "paint" that picture by people who are opposed to the concept. The notion of "privilege", as it's used in academic "social justice" work (and by pretty much everyone I've ever heard from or spoken with who takes "non-toxic" "SJW" values to heart) specifically accounts for that. (You may not hear about it from the latter, because they're probably sick to fucking death of hearing the same complaint, premised in a complete misunderstanding of the whole concept, from people — usually, surprise!, white men — over and over again. Wouldn't you be?) But it's so much easier to rail against the straw-man version of a concept that confirms your biases, right? EDIT: phrasing. And some "This again?" eye-roll. Sorry: not sorry.
toxic-prevenger 9y ago
No, but it is incredibly silly to believe that your notions of class and privilege are anything but extremely leaky abstractions that are insufficient to use to reason about the individuals they try to cover. It's the basic fallacy of the social theorist disciplines.
ryanx435 9y ago
You could point out other advantages that acrew to tall people, fit people, athletic people, rich people, beautiful people, young people, edycated people, etc etc etc And the disadvantages faced by short people, fat people, non athletic people, poor people, ugly people, old people, uneducated people, etc etc etc. My point being that everyone faces a different set of advantages and disadvantages that other people and classes either can't benefit from or prosper from.
Sacho 9y ago
Well, there's two issues I would have with your statement. The first is that "pointing out" is not where the story ends; like parent said, there is a small minority of people who use this "average man"(an amalgamation of features that doesn't actually exist in reality) to shame specific individuals(e.g. calling out novel authors for being "privileged" and thus shouldn't write characters with a different skin colour). This usage opens you up to an obvious reciprocal attack you would probably object to - one could point out that the average black person is much more likely to be arrested(https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2015/crime-in-the-u.s.-2015/tables/table-43 https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2015/crime-in-the-u.s.-...) and use this to call specific black people "dangerous". In both cases, you are prejudging based on a stereotype. The second objection is that once you start to delve into the "privileges", the label just doesn't seem to fit the actual things being described. Actually searching for "white male privileges" leads me to articles that are so easy to fight that I feel like I'd be addressing a strawman[0][1][2], so if possible, could you provide a list? My general contention is that the lists of "privileges" end up being a mix of: significant outcome benefits which have controversial correlation-not-causation interpretations(e.g. is blacks being arrested more "white privilege" or simply the amalgamated effect of high poverty, low education and latent racism?); things you would not really describe as "privileges" but simply different choices(e.g. men having longer careers due to spending less family time); things that are incredibly petty("I can if I wish arrange to be in the company of people of my race most of the time." from [0]) [0] - http://www.winnipeg.ca/clerks/boards/citizenequity/pdfs/white_privilege.pdf http://www.winnipeg.ca/clerks/boards/citizenequity/pdfs/whit... [1] - http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/11/lessons-white-privilege-poc/ http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/11/lessons-white-privilege-... [2] - http://www.care2.com/causes/what-exactly-is-white-privilege-here-are-7-examples.html http://www.care2.com/causes/what-exactly-is-white-privilege-...
yorwba 9y ago
See it like this: You know how the other side has those incredibly stupid people who can't even make a coherent argument, tout a blog post as a credible source and react to rational argument with insults and threats? Well, your side has them, too. If you care about social issues, they are toxic SJWs. If you are a patriot, they are white supremacists. If you are a Muslim, they are Islamist terrorists. Arguments are not soldiers [0]. Don't let a disagreement turn into a war. If you see someone support a cause you care about, but for the wrong reasons; and do so in a manner that alienates anyone who disagrees, you should call them out on it. [0] http://lesswrong.com/lw/gz/policy_debates_should_not_appear_onesided/ http://lesswrong.com/lw/gz/policy_debates_should_not_appear_...
bd3vani 9y ago
Amen.