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>I don't know what the solution is, but I seriously doubt that most people today would feel like someone with a 2nd grade education or even an 8th grade educati

>I don't know what the solution is, but I seriously doubt that most people today would feel like someone with a 2nd grade education or even an 8th grade education deserves a job as they are I'm less concerned with what people's feelings are than I am about results. The problem here is the minimum wage. We send people to sub-par schools in shitty areas, denying them the ability to get the skills to be productive. Then we require employers to discriminate against them if their productivity is insufficient to justify the minimum wage. Without the minimum wage that abysmally educated person would be more likely to get some amount of productive work and learn skills which would make them qualified for other jobs with higher pay.

aplummer 9y ago
> Without the minimum wage that abysmally educated person would be more likely to get some amount of productive work and learn skills which would make them qualified for other jobs with higher pay. Wow that is a very controversial opinion. With a higher minimum wage, that person would have disposable time they could use for whatever they want, including study.
- kgc 9y ago
  I think you're making the assumption that the person you're talking about would get the job without being out-competed by someone else? Higher paying jobs have more competition.
  - eastWestMath 9y ago
    Relatively higher paying jobs have relatively more competition. The lowest paying jobs (minimum wage) will always have the least competition.
    - erikbye 9y ago
      This does not seem to be a universal truth. Time and again I see news stories of grocery store type jobs (or McDonalds) getting hundreds of applicants.
      - Consultant32452 9y ago
        That's because the minimum wage is higher than the market value for many of those people's productivity. Without a minimum wage anyone willing to do work would more quickly be able to find paying work. And anyone who is productive will quickly move up the pay scale.
    - eeZah7Ux 9y ago
      The opposite is true.
    - mcguire 9y ago
      That's why they pay so much; it's econ 101.
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- ehnto 9y ago
  Having to work too many hours due to a low minimum wage is a common reason low earners don't have the energy to try to study and move up the ladder. So I agree, removing the minimum wage doesn't sound like a good answer at all. It's all well and good to want to study but for some their are many roadblocks. Not all bootstraps are made at the same length and some are just a little too short to reach.
  - muninn_ 9y ago
    Even as a high wage earner it's difficult
  - Consultant32452 9y ago
    Working is studying to move up the ladder. There's a reason a senior developer makes more than a junior developer. Even if you work a completely no-skill job doing something like sweeping floors... if you show up on time, work hard, etc. you will get references for better jobs with more opportunity to grow. Or perhaps if you do a good job sweeping floors, maybe you'll get the opportunity to get promoted to working the stock room, and then managing the stock room, etc.
- Consultant32452 9y ago
  What good is a $15/hr minimum wage for a person only capable of producing $10/hr in value? It's off to the unemployment line with them. Without a minimum wage more employers would be willing to hire completely unskilled workers and provide them with on-the-job training. The higher the minimum wage, the more like they are to demand you already have the skills and experience necessary to be highly productive on day one.
mcguire 9y ago
Minimum wage is a difficult issue. Perhaps you're right. Or perhaps eliminating the minimum wage would force those trying to survive on it, however temporarily, to take multiple jobs and reducing the number of people who can be employed. Perhaps reducing or eliminating the minimum wage would make employers more productive and more profitable; they could then put that money back onto circulation, making life better for the entire economy. Or it could reinforce the concentration of wealth and put companies into the awkward position of not having anyone to sell their products to.
- Consultant32452 9y ago
  >Or perhaps eliminating the minimum wage would force those trying to survive on it, however temporarily, to take multiple jobs and reducing the number of people who can be employed. That's a very shallow view of the market, pretending like moving one thing doesn't move everything else. If the price of labor goes down, the price of goods and services will shortly follow suit. That's why shit produced in China has been so cheap, labor is cheap. >Perhaps reducing or eliminating the minimum wage would make employers more productive and more profitable; It would increase the economic efficiency of the entire system. The employers are already productive and profitable, they just ship your job to China where labor is cheaper. Not only are you unemployed, but every moment you lack a job your market value is decreasing. Nobody wants to hire someone who has been unemployed for a long time. You're also not building useful skills, or a reputation/references for being a good worker.
pnutjam 9y ago
And you will gladly pay taxes to subsidize their housing and other living expenses, right? Maybe we could designate some sort of universal income for such people, so they could pursue opportunity with a safety net of sorts.

aplummer 9y ago

> Without the minimum wage that abysmally educated person would be more likely to get some amount of productive work and learn skills which would make them qualified for other jobs with higher pay. Wow that is a very controversial opinion. With a higher minimum wage, that person would have disposable time they could use for whatever they want, including study.

kgc 9y ago
I think you're making the assumption that the person you're talking about would get the job without being out-competed by someone else? Higher paying jobs have more competition.
- eastWestMath 9y ago
  Relatively higher paying jobs have relatively more competition. The lowest paying jobs (minimum wage) will always have the least competition.
  - erikbye 9y ago
    This does not seem to be a universal truth. Time and again I see news stories of grocery store type jobs (or McDonalds) getting hundreds of applicants.
    - Consultant32452 9y ago
      That's because the minimum wage is higher than the market value for many of those people's productivity. Without a minimum wage anyone willing to do work would more quickly be able to find paying work. And anyone who is productive will quickly move up the pay scale.
  - eeZah7Ux 9y ago
    The opposite is true.
  - mcguire 9y ago
    That's why they pay so much; it's econ 101.
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ehnto 9y ago
Having to work too many hours due to a low minimum wage is a common reason low earners don't have the energy to try to study and move up the ladder. So I agree, removing the minimum wage doesn't sound like a good answer at all. It's all well and good to want to study but for some their are many roadblocks. Not all bootstraps are made at the same length and some are just a little too short to reach.
- muninn_ 9y ago
  Even as a high wage earner it's difficult
- Consultant32452 9y ago
  Working is studying to move up the ladder. There's a reason a senior developer makes more than a junior developer. Even if you work a completely no-skill job doing something like sweeping floors... if you show up on time, work hard, etc. you will get references for better jobs with more opportunity to grow. Or perhaps if you do a good job sweeping floors, maybe you'll get the opportunity to get promoted to working the stock room, and then managing the stock room, etc.
Consultant32452 9y ago
What good is a $15/hr minimum wage for a person only capable of producing $10/hr in value? It's off to the unemployment line with them. Without a minimum wage more employers would be willing to hire completely unskilled workers and provide them with on-the-job training. The higher the minimum wage, the more like they are to demand you already have the skills and experience necessary to be highly productive on day one.

mcguire 9y ago

Minimum wage is a difficult issue. Perhaps you're right. Or perhaps eliminating the minimum wage would force those trying to survive on it, however temporarily, to take multiple jobs and reducing the number of people who can be employed. Perhaps reducing or eliminating the minimum wage would make employers more productive and more profitable; they could then put that money back onto circulation, making life better for the entire economy. Or it could reinforce the concentration of wealth and put companies into the awkward position of not having anyone to sell their products to.

Consultant32452 9y ago
>Or perhaps eliminating the minimum wage would force those trying to survive on it, however temporarily, to take multiple jobs and reducing the number of people who can be employed. That's a very shallow view of the market, pretending like moving one thing doesn't move everything else. If the price of labor goes down, the price of goods and services will shortly follow suit. That's why shit produced in China has been so cheap, labor is cheap. >Perhaps reducing or eliminating the minimum wage would make employers more productive and more profitable; It would increase the economic efficiency of the entire system. The employers are already productive and profitable, they just ship your job to China where labor is cheaper. Not only are you unemployed, but every moment you lack a job your market value is decreasing. Nobody wants to hire someone who has been unemployed for a long time. You're also not building useful skills, or a reputation/references for being a good worker.

pnutjam 9y ago

And you will gladly pay taxes to subsidize their housing and other living expenses, right? Maybe we could designate some sort of universal income for such people, so they could pursue opportunity with a safety net of sorts.