3 ms·

What is up with the resurgence of euro-pride among young white guys? I'm genuinely curious were it's coming from, it definitely feels like a new phenomenon in t

by guelo 9y ago

What is up with the resurgence of euro-pride among young white guys? I'm genuinely curious were it's coming from, it definitely feels like a new phenomenon in the last 2-3 years.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
nyolfen 9y ago
identity politics is for everyone
ryanx435 9y ago
It's push back against the toxic strands of SJW culture that have gone from "diversity is good" to "white culure is bad". It's a small but very vocal branch of SJWs against a small and very vocal branch of counter SJWs, but both sides of it are in a meme war (using the scientific definition of meme: a mechanism to transfer ideas and culture) and the effects of their culture clashes are large enough for you and I to notice.
- tacomonstrous 9y ago
  Is it really so toxic to point out that the average white male in American society enjoys certain privileges that are unavailable to the average member of any other class? Or that the average black male is subject to multiple disadvantages that members of other classes don't usually experience? Also, the use of the term SJW might appear 'edgy' but its overuse has turned it into a marker of nothing but intellectual vapidity.
  - tasty_freeze 9y ago
    There is a significant number of people who vehemently disagree with what you (rightly) suggest should be an obvious truth. For them, the only racism is against white people, and that "minorities" (for whichever subgroup they care to categorize) have it easy.
  - flukus 9y ago
    > Is it really so toxic to point out that the average white male in American society enjoys certain privileges that are unavailable to the average member of any other class? Yes, it's divisive and helps no one, that's pretty much the definition of toxic.
    - tacomonstrous 9y ago
      >Yes, it's divisive and helps no one, that's pretty much the definition of toxic. I cannot even imagine the level of delusion and denial that underlies that statement.
      - flukus 9y ago
        This might surprise you but not all white people are average. Many come from distinctly disadvantaged backgrounds and get offended hearing you talk about how privileged they are.
        falsedan 9y ago
        Yeah Mr. Monstrous, can't you tone down the incessant reminding of their preferred status in society?
    - dragonwriter 9y ago
      It's factually accurate, and recognizing that fact helps lots of people.
      - flukus 9y ago
        And it hinders a lot more because it pre-supposes that race is the root cause for a lot of social ills when it's really things like lack of access to education, which hurts poor white, black and end everything in between people. It also get's used to diminish the accomplishments of many white people that did not have privileged backgrounds.
        9y ago
  - toxic-prevenger 9y ago
    No, but it is incredibly silly to believe that your notions of class and privilege are anything but extremely leaky abstractions that are insufficient to use to reason about the individuals they try to cover. It's the basic fallacy of the social theorist disciplines.
  - ryanx435 9y ago
    You could point out other advantages that acrew to tall people, fit people, athletic people, rich people, beautiful people, young people, edycated people, etc etc etc And the disadvantages faced by short people, fat people, non athletic people, poor people, ugly people, old people, uneducated people, etc etc etc. My point being that everyone faces a different set of advantages and disadvantages that other people and classes either can't benefit from or prosper from.
  - Sacho 9y ago
    Well, there's two issues I would have with your statement. The first is that "pointing out" is not where the story ends; like parent said, there is a small minority of people who use this "average man"(an amalgamation of features that doesn't actually exist in reality) to shame specific individuals(e.g. calling out novel authors for being "privileged" and thus shouldn't write characters with a different skin colour). This usage opens you up to an obvious reciprocal attack you would probably object to - one could point out that the average black person is much more likely to be arrested(https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2015/crime-in-the-u.s.-2015/tables/table-43 https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2015/crime-in-the-u.s.-...) and use this to call specific black people "dangerous". In both cases, you are prejudging based on a stereotype. The second objection is that once you start to delve into the "privileges", the label just doesn't seem to fit the actual things being described. Actually searching for "white male privileges" leads me to articles that are so easy to fight that I feel like I'd be addressing a strawman[0][1][2], so if possible, could you provide a list? My general contention is that the lists of "privileges" end up being a mix of: significant outcome benefits which have controversial correlation-not-causation interpretations(e.g. is blacks being arrested more "white privilege" or simply the amalgamated effect of high poverty, low education and latent racism?); things you would not really describe as "privileges" but simply different choices(e.g. men having longer careers due to spending less family time); things that are incredibly petty("I can if I wish arrange to be in the company of people of my race most of the time." from [0]) [0] - http://www.winnipeg.ca/clerks/boards/citizenequity/pdfs/white_privilege.pdf http://www.winnipeg.ca/clerks/boards/citizenequity/pdfs/whit... [1] - http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/11/lessons-white-privilege-poc/ http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/11/lessons-white-privilege-... [2] - http://www.care2.com/causes/what-exactly-is-white-privilege-here-are-7-examples.html http://www.care2.com/causes/what-exactly-is-white-privilege-...
  - yorwba 9y ago
    See it like this: You know how the other side has those incredibly stupid people who can't even make a coherent argument, tout a blog post as a credible source and react to rational argument with insults and threats? Well, your side has them, too. If you care about social issues, they are toxic SJWs. If you are a patriot, they are white supremacists. If you are a Muslim, they are Islamist terrorists. Arguments are not soldiers [0]. Don't let a disagreement turn into a war. If you see someone support a cause you care about, but for the wrong reasons; and do so in a manner that alienates anyone who disagrees, you should call them out on it. [0] http://lesswrong.com/lw/gz/policy_debates_should_not_appear_onesided/ http://lesswrong.com/lw/gz/policy_debates_should_not_appear_...
  - bd3vani 9y ago
    Amen.
flukus 9y ago
Where are you seeing it now? Doesn't seem to be any in these comments or in TFA.
intended 9y ago
The internet happened. It allows all sorts of people to gather in their own echo chambers, and feed off of their emotions. Echo chambers consume information that matches their biases, discards other information, and treats any source which argues differently as the enemy. Rinse repeat for any and all causes. (Some causes may have inherent dampeners in extreme behavior, others will not.) At least that's my understanding of the current dynamic. (related reading: The spreading of misinformation on social media - http://www.pnas.org/content/113/3/554.full http://www.pnas.org/content/113/3/554.full)
barking 9y ago
Everyone else has their pride, black pride, gay pride, womens' pride(?). Christmas is mentioned less as it's slowly turning into 'Happy Holidays' but we have more mention of Eid, Ramadam, Yom Kippur etc. TV news reports explain to us the meaning of these religious festivals completely uncritically and visit families in their homes as they celebrate them. It's like our culture is oppressive whilst others are enriching. Turn down the volume on ours and increase it on others.
dang 9y ago
All: most comments in this subthread are breaking the HN guidelines. Flamewars on this site result in accounts getting penalized and/or banned. If you're determined to step into these minefields, please take extra care to do so respectfully and thoughtfully. Note: lobbing explosives is not doing so respectfully and thoughtfully.

by guelo 9y ago

What is up with the resurgence of euro-pride among young white guys? I'm genuinely curious were it's coming from, it definitely feels like a new phenomenon in the last 2-3 years.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

nyolfen 9y ago

identity politics is for everyone

ryanx435 9y ago

It's push back against the toxic strands of SJW culture that have gone from "diversity is good" to "white culure is bad". It's a small but very vocal branch of SJWs against a small and very vocal branch of counter SJWs, but both sides of it are in a meme war (using the scientific definition of meme: a mechanism to transfer ideas and culture) and the effects of their culture clashes are large enough for you and I to notice.

tacomonstrous 9y ago
Is it really so toxic to point out that the average white male in American society enjoys certain privileges that are unavailable to the average member of any other class? Or that the average black male is subject to multiple disadvantages that members of other classes don't usually experience? Also, the use of the term SJW might appear 'edgy' but its overuse has turned it into a marker of nothing but intellectual vapidity.
- tasty_freeze 9y ago
  There is a significant number of people who vehemently disagree with what you (rightly) suggest should be an obvious truth. For them, the only racism is against white people, and that "minorities" (for whichever subgroup they care to categorize) have it easy.
- flukus 9y ago
  > Is it really so toxic to point out that the average white male in American society enjoys certain privileges that are unavailable to the average member of any other class? Yes, it's divisive and helps no one, that's pretty much the definition of toxic.
  - tacomonstrous 9y ago
    >Yes, it's divisive and helps no one, that's pretty much the definition of toxic. I cannot even imagine the level of delusion and denial that underlies that statement.
    - flukus 9y ago
      This might surprise you but not all white people are average. Many come from distinctly disadvantaged backgrounds and get offended hearing you talk about how privileged they are.
      - falsedan 9y ago
        Yeah Mr. Monstrous, can't you tone down the incessant reminding of their preferred status in society?
  - dragonwriter 9y ago
    It's factually accurate, and recognizing that fact helps lots of people.
    - flukus 9y ago
      And it hinders a lot more because it pre-supposes that race is the root cause for a lot of social ills when it's really things like lack of access to education, which hurts poor white, black and end everything in between people. It also get's used to diminish the accomplishments of many white people that did not have privileged backgrounds.
      - 9y ago
- toxic-prevenger 9y ago
  No, but it is incredibly silly to believe that your notions of class and privilege are anything but extremely leaky abstractions that are insufficient to use to reason about the individuals they try to cover. It's the basic fallacy of the social theorist disciplines.
- ryanx435 9y ago
  You could point out other advantages that acrew to tall people, fit people, athletic people, rich people, beautiful people, young people, edycated people, etc etc etc And the disadvantages faced by short people, fat people, non athletic people, poor people, ugly people, old people, uneducated people, etc etc etc. My point being that everyone faces a different set of advantages and disadvantages that other people and classes either can't benefit from or prosper from.
- Sacho 9y ago
  Well, there's two issues I would have with your statement. The first is that "pointing out" is not where the story ends; like parent said, there is a small minority of people who use this "average man"(an amalgamation of features that doesn't actually exist in reality) to shame specific individuals(e.g. calling out novel authors for being "privileged" and thus shouldn't write characters with a different skin colour). This usage opens you up to an obvious reciprocal attack you would probably object to - one could point out that the average black person is much more likely to be arrested(https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2015/crime-in-the-u.s.-2015/tables/table-43 https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2015/crime-in-the-u.s.-...) and use this to call specific black people "dangerous". In both cases, you are prejudging based on a stereotype. The second objection is that once you start to delve into the "privileges", the label just doesn't seem to fit the actual things being described. Actually searching for "white male privileges" leads me to articles that are so easy to fight that I feel like I'd be addressing a strawman[0][1][2], so if possible, could you provide a list? My general contention is that the lists of "privileges" end up being a mix of: significant outcome benefits which have controversial correlation-not-causation interpretations(e.g. is blacks being arrested more "white privilege" or simply the amalgamated effect of high poverty, low education and latent racism?); things you would not really describe as "privileges" but simply different choices(e.g. men having longer careers due to spending less family time); things that are incredibly petty("I can if I wish arrange to be in the company of people of my race most of the time." from [0]) [0] - http://www.winnipeg.ca/clerks/boards/citizenequity/pdfs/white_privilege.pdf http://www.winnipeg.ca/clerks/boards/citizenequity/pdfs/whit... [1] - http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/11/lessons-white-privilege-poc/ http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/11/lessons-white-privilege-... [2] - http://www.care2.com/causes/what-exactly-is-white-privilege-here-are-7-examples.html http://www.care2.com/causes/what-exactly-is-white-privilege-...
- yorwba 9y ago
  See it like this: You know how the other side has those incredibly stupid people who can't even make a coherent argument, tout a blog post as a credible source and react to rational argument with insults and threats? Well, your side has them, too. If you care about social issues, they are toxic SJWs. If you are a patriot, they are white supremacists. If you are a Muslim, they are Islamist terrorists. Arguments are not soldiers [0]. Don't let a disagreement turn into a war. If you see someone support a cause you care about, but for the wrong reasons; and do so in a manner that alienates anyone who disagrees, you should call them out on it. [0] http://lesswrong.com/lw/gz/policy_debates_should_not_appear_onesided/ http://lesswrong.com/lw/gz/policy_debates_should_not_appear_...
- bd3vani 9y ago
  Amen.

flukus 9y ago

Where are you seeing it now? Doesn't seem to be any in these comments or in TFA.

intended 9y ago

The internet happened. It allows all sorts of people to gather in their own echo chambers, and feed off of their emotions. Echo chambers consume information that matches their biases, discards other information, and treats any source which argues differently as the enemy. Rinse repeat for any and all causes. (Some causes may have inherent dampeners in extreme behavior, others will not.) At least that's my understanding of the current dynamic. (related reading: The spreading of misinformation on social media - http://www.pnas.org/content/113/3/554.full http://www.pnas.org/content/113/3/554.full)

barking 9y ago

Everyone else has their pride, black pride, gay pride, womens' pride(?). Christmas is mentioned less as it's slowly turning into 'Happy Holidays' but we have more mention of Eid, Ramadam, Yom Kippur etc. TV news reports explain to us the meaning of these religious festivals completely uncritically and visit families in their homes as they celebrate them. It's like our culture is oppressive whilst others are enriching. Turn down the volume on ours and increase it on others.

dang 9y ago

All: most comments in this subthread are breaking the HN guidelines. Flamewars on this site result in accounts getting penalized and/or banned. If you're determined to step into these minefields, please take extra care to do so respectfully and thoughtfully. Note: lobbing explosives is not doing so respectfully and thoughtfully.