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Article seems to be under the mistaken impression that these tv idents were built, put in front of a camera and recorded and then the recordings broadcast - pos

Article seems to be under the mistaken impression that these tv idents were built, put in front of a camera and recorded and then the recordings broadcast - possibly after even applying postproduction effects. Actually they were generally broadcast live by pointing a camera at them. This is one of those artifacts of digital era thinking which misunderstands the nature of analog era technology. These idents needed to be able to be shown on demand, in the event of a breakdown in some other piece of equipment. They needed to be able to run for arbitrarily long periods of time. They needed to be shown many times per day during regular programming. And you couldn't just connect up a computer and stream mpeg video - you would need some sort of a device that could generate the TV picture. TV was recorded on video tape and video tape wouldn't work for this application - it would need to be rewound every time you stopped showing it; it would wear out with continual use; it would have a fixed maximum duration. Having a camera standing by pointing at the appropriate device, on the other hand, was relatively easy. Most tv stations just pointed a camera at a piece of card. The BBC obviously had to go one better and use a crazy globe and mirror setup.

Nition 9y ago
This is contradicted directly in the article re the BBC logo. It says the globe and mirror setup was rotoscoped/traced over to create the final cartoon look that was broadcast. Or is the article wrong? Edit: The article is wrong! The colour was added to the camera's output live!
- Zikes 9y ago
  There's an update at the bottom of the article for this: > UPDATE: It turns out the BBC Globe ident wasn’t rotoscoped or animated, instead it was recorded live using the Noddy camera system and the color was created by adjusting the contrast. Thanks, Gene!
  - Nition 9y ago
    That's good. Although that's a bit wrong. You can't take a monochrome image and add colour just by adjusting the contrast. I'm also not sure you can say it was "recorded" at all if it was broadcast directly, but that's a language question.
    - jdboyd 9y ago
      I believe the contrast adjustment was likely to get rid of any unwanted shades of grey before colouring the two extremes.
      - jameshart 9y ago
        I suspect 'coloring the two extremes' involves something more like 'wiring the luminance signal up to the chroma'. Again, try not to think digital. This isn't photoshop, this is signal processing.
        tomc1985 9y ago
        Or it could be a filter over the camera lens.
        Jaruzel 9y ago
        Once you have a mostly Black, and White (with no greys) image - it's relatively simple via basic electronics to colour replace those with alternate colours - much like the old analogue chromakey 'blue-screen' techniques.
kbutler 9y ago
Do you have a citation for that? Looping films have been around for a long time. Yes, physical films may wear out, but it seems like it would be easier to produce and distribute copies than to produce physical devices in many places.
- jameshart 9y ago
  Sure: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noddy_(camera) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noddy_(camera)
- eddieroger 9y ago
  You do realize that recording video content was inherently created /after/ the ability to transmit it in the first place, so even if looping has been around for a long time, the ability to transmit video has been around longer. And, as the other reference mentioned, much longer. The point of these systems was to be an alternate to a failure, so it failing wouldn't be acceptable - and rewinding or even replacing with a second tape would be a failure of a system that has to constantly present an image to the viewer.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - unclenoriega 9y ago
    I'm sure you're correct, but be warned that starting a response with 'you do realize' is likely to make you sound like an asshole[0] 0. http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=you+do+realize+.. http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=you+do+realiz....
    - eddieroger 9y ago
      If your citation is Urban Dictionary, I think I'll take the risk. I could have been more tactful, sure, but so could have the post I replied to.
      - 9y ago
galago 9y ago
You're right about things getting forgotten. Two of the setups you're referring to in the pre-tape era were the film chain for playback and the kinescope for recording. These things were finicky and required extra personnel, whereas pointing one of the cameras at a physical logo was much easier. Its why much of early television, especially local programming was not saved. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Film_chain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Film_chain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinescope https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinescope This is a kinescope of Playhouse 90s production of Requiem for a Heavyweight which was performed live on TV like a play. Its amazing to think they changed sets and costumes during commercials. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9B0h2Anklbo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9B0h2Anklbo
Theodores 9y ago
In the UK the Anglia TV 'knight' is remembered by old-timers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73CnqdPanio https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73CnqdPanio > The Anglia Knight is over 100 years old and was commissioned originally by the King of the Netherlands. > The king was a patron of a society called The Falcon Club, which met once a year to compete in horse races, falconry and other sports. > In 1850, the King felt so confident that he would win the contest that he commissioned a trophy from a London firm of silversmiths. The trophy was modelled on the statue of Richard Coeur de Lion, which stands outside the House of Parliament, but it was made to represent the Black Prince. > However, to the King's dismay it was won by an Englishman and brought back to Britain where it remained in the possession of the victor's family until 1959 the year Anglia first went on the air. > A famous firm of Bond Street jewellers and goldsmiths (Aspreys) was commissioned to make certain modifications including the pennant on the lance and the magnificent trophy became the famous symbol of Anglia Television. > The Anglia Knight is made of sterling silver and weighs over 700 ounces. The detailed work was hand-chased by a superb craftsman. > The music that is heard when the knight is on air is part of Handel's Water Music, specially arranged for Anglia Television by Sir Malcolm Sargent. > Thanks to Steve Hearn and Adrian Ruck More background: http://www.closinglogos.com/page/Anglia+Television http://www.closinglogos.com/page/Anglia+Television Here is the 1959 original: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFiC0RxKeH8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFiC0RxKeH8 So was that on tape or live recorded? If so, how did the cut the camera shots? All possible live but is it?
- Stoo 9y ago
  I remember the Anglia TV knight! I didn't realise it had such a fascinating story behind it.
tdeck 9y ago
Perhaps the earliest example of this was Felix the Cat, used by early mechanical television stations in the late 1920s to claim their part of the broadcast band [1]. They placed a wooden model of Felix on a turntable, trained a 120 line "flying spot" camera on it, and left it on. I read a contemporary account of watching an early televised prize fight which mentioned this as well, but I can't for the life of me find it anymore. [1]: http://framemaster.tripod.com/Electronictv.html http://framemaster.tripod.com/Electronictv.html
slededit 9y ago
A monoscope tube was also sometimes used for this purpose. But they had to be custom made for a specific image. It was also only good for Black and White. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monoscope https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monoscope

Nition 9y ago

This is contradicted directly in the article re the BBC logo. It says the globe and mirror setup was rotoscoped/traced over to create the final cartoon look that was broadcast. Or is the article wrong? Edit: The article is wrong! The colour was added to the camera's output live!

Zikes 9y ago
There's an update at the bottom of the article for this: > UPDATE: It turns out the BBC Globe ident wasn’t rotoscoped or animated, instead it was recorded live using the Noddy camera system and the color was created by adjusting the contrast. Thanks, Gene!
- Nition 9y ago
  That's good. Although that's a bit wrong. You can't take a monochrome image and add colour just by adjusting the contrast. I'm also not sure you can say it was "recorded" at all if it was broadcast directly, but that's a language question.
  - jdboyd 9y ago
    I believe the contrast adjustment was likely to get rid of any unwanted shades of grey before colouring the two extremes.
    - jameshart 9y ago
      I suspect 'coloring the two extremes' involves something more like 'wiring the luminance signal up to the chroma'. Again, try not to think digital. This isn't photoshop, this is signal processing.
      - tomc1985 9y ago
        Or it could be a filter over the camera lens.
        Jaruzel 9y ago
        Once you have a mostly Black, and White (with no greys) image - it's relatively simple via basic electronics to colour replace those with alternate colours - much like the old analogue chromakey 'blue-screen' techniques.

kbutler 9y ago

Do you have a citation for that? Looping films have been around for a long time. Yes, physical films may wear out, but it seems like it would be easier to produce and distribute copies than to produce physical devices in many places.

jameshart 9y ago
Sure: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noddy_(camera) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noddy_(camera)
eddieroger 9y ago
You do realize that recording video content was inherently created /after/ the ability to transmit it in the first place, so even if looping has been around for a long time, the ability to transmit video has been around longer. And, as the other reference mentioned, much longer. The point of these systems was to be an alternate to a failure, so it failing wouldn't be acceptable - and rewinding or even replacing with a second tape would be a failure of a system that has to constantly present an image to the viewer.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- unclenoriega 9y ago
  I'm sure you're correct, but be warned that starting a response with 'you do realize' is likely to make you sound like an asshole[0] 0. http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=you+do+realize+.. http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=you+do+realiz....
  - eddieroger 9y ago
    If your citation is Urban Dictionary, I think I'll take the risk. I could have been more tactful, sure, but so could have the post I replied to.
    - 9y ago

galago 9y ago

You're right about things getting forgotten. Two of the setups you're referring to in the pre-tape era were the film chain for playback and the kinescope for recording. These things were finicky and required extra personnel, whereas pointing one of the cameras at a physical logo was much easier. Its why much of early television, especially local programming was not saved. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Film_chain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Film_chain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinescope https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinescope This is a kinescope of Playhouse 90s production of Requiem for a Heavyweight which was performed live on TV like a play. Its amazing to think they changed sets and costumes during commercials. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9B0h2Anklbo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9B0h2Anklbo

Theodores 9y ago

In the UK the Anglia TV 'knight' is remembered by old-timers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73CnqdPanio https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73CnqdPanio > The Anglia Knight is over 100 years old and was commissioned originally by the King of the Netherlands. > The king was a patron of a society called The Falcon Club, which met once a year to compete in horse races, falconry and other sports. > In 1850, the King felt so confident that he would win the contest that he commissioned a trophy from a London firm of silversmiths. The trophy was modelled on the statue of Richard Coeur de Lion, which stands outside the House of Parliament, but it was made to represent the Black Prince. > However, to the King's dismay it was won by an Englishman and brought back to Britain where it remained in the possession of the victor's family until 1959 the year Anglia first went on the air. > A famous firm of Bond Street jewellers and goldsmiths (Aspreys) was commissioned to make certain modifications including the pennant on the lance and the magnificent trophy became the famous symbol of Anglia Television. > The Anglia Knight is made of sterling silver and weighs over 700 ounces. The detailed work was hand-chased by a superb craftsman. > The music that is heard when the knight is on air is part of Handel's Water Music, specially arranged for Anglia Television by Sir Malcolm Sargent. > Thanks to Steve Hearn and Adrian Ruck More background: http://www.closinglogos.com/page/Anglia+Television http://www.closinglogos.com/page/Anglia+Television Here is the 1959 original: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFiC0RxKeH8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFiC0RxKeH8 So was that on tape or live recorded? If so, how did the cut the camera shots? All possible live but is it?

Stoo 9y ago
I remember the Anglia TV knight! I didn't realise it had such a fascinating story behind it.

tdeck 9y ago

Perhaps the earliest example of this was Felix the Cat, used by early mechanical television stations in the late 1920s to claim their part of the broadcast band [1]. They placed a wooden model of Felix on a turntable, trained a 120 line "flying spot" camera on it, and left it on. I read a contemporary account of watching an early televised prize fight which mentioned this as well, but I can't for the life of me find it anymore. [1]: http://framemaster.tripod.com/Electronictv.html http://framemaster.tripod.com/Electronictv.html

slededit 9y ago

A monoscope tube was also sometimes used for this purpose. But they had to be custom made for a specific image. It was also only good for Black and White. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monoscope https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monoscope