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I think that yours is a typical viewpoint on this topic among white men. I don't mean this as an insult in any way; since that's most likely your entire life ex

I think that yours is a typical viewpoint on this topic among white men. I don't mean this as an insult in any way; since that's most likely your entire life experience. But when you constantly have your competence questioned when people don't do the same to coworkers, you feel unfairly boxed in. It'd be great to solve the big problems of the world; but most women / people of color have to fight to prove that they belong in the conversation. It's a daily frustration, so we complain on blogs about it. The shitty thing about it is that you really don't know when it figures in. All you see is your white male coworkers advancing in their careers while you're left to wonder "Was he promoted because he goes fishing with the boss? Or is he doing something I'm not?" Never mind that the boss doesn't invite you fishing because you're female and his wife won't allow it. It's that constant, nagging "What if?" that bothers us. It's not that I don't care about the problems of other people in the world; it's that I'm constantly reminded how little little power I have within my immediate sphere of influence that I don't feel I have anything to contribute outside of it. There is a small but influential political base in this country that actually believes women are second-class citizens (watch how many people the Daily Show was able to get to un-ironically admit that they thought Trump was a better option than Clinton because he was a man -- even other women). But at the same time, this has caused a backlash against "political correctness" that we first world feminists have to defend against that have very real consequences (abortion rights, family leave, etc). So yeah, the narcissistic essays are gone, but there are still problems to address -- both at home and elsewhere (ignoring the entirely patronizing idea that the world outside western democracies need our help...)

dsacco 9y ago
> I think that yours is a typical viewpoint on this topic among white men. I don't mean this as an insult in any way; since that's most likely your entire life experience. Well that's presumptuous.
- exelius 9y ago
  Not so comfortable when the shoe is on the other foot? Edit: I see I'm getting downvoted for this. I stand by it because this is the exact same type of presumption that is made of women ("Oh, she's 30 -- we shouldn't hire her because she's probably going to get pregnant soon") all the damn time.
  - dsacco 9y ago
    > Not so comfortable when the shoe is on the other foot? Hm...I find this particular rhetorical technique to be rather lacking in substance. It's unnecessarily adversarial, and it continues an attempt at persuasion by remarking on the individual's identity rather than the statements. To answer it directly: no, I don't feel defensive about the part of your first comment that I singled out; instead, I think it significantly undermines your (fairly strong, in my opinion) argument. Opening with a comment that assumes the other party's race or gender based on their perspective, then immediately patronizes them for it ("I don't mean this as an insult in any way; since that's most likely your entire life experience.") detracts from what would otherwise be a well-delivered point. I don't want to make this a game of suffering-competition, but here's a thought experiment: would you explicitly mention your assumption about someone's race if you figured they're a minority, then go on to use the sentence, I don't mean this as an insult in any way; since that's most likely your entire life experience. to describe their perspective? Edit to your edit: I understand this is an emotionally charged topic, but even if you are correct that women have to routinely deal with the sort of comment you made towards briholt (and I believe they do), you doing the same to convince others is a poor method of bridging communication and empathy.
    - exelius 9y ago
      I googled his username first, so it wasn't pure presumption.
- burkaman 9y ago
  It might be an assumption, but you can also just Google Bri Holt and see who it is.
  - oh_sigh 9y ago
    Perhaps it's presumptuous in the sense that is presuming that he either has a particular viewpoint because he is male, or that makes can't understand perspective X
briholt 9y ago
Those white male retired coal miners living on welfare in trailer parks and dying of black lung will never understand the plight of middle class office politics.
- dismantlethesun 9y ago
  Are you a white coal miner dying of black lung? I think the issue here is simple. Some women make complaints about events in their daily lives, and connect it to a wider conflict/issue about the rights and status of women. Let's call these women group A. On the other hand, it seems rare for men to complain in the same way. I've seen men complaining about group A merely having discussions. I've seen men complaining about the treatment of men whom they are not connected to (e.g. coal miners, kindergarden teachers, nurses). However, I rarely see personal gripes. I'd invite you to actually make a personal gripe, because it will be more topical than dragging up an age-old trope.
  - exelius 9y ago
    Yes. This. My theory is that Silicon Valley (aka "white men" in the most air-quotes way possible) have moved on to solving the problems of the whole world (whether the world wants them to or not) because they don't have acute social obstacles they have to deal with. The rest of us have things that bother us every day: we work on fixing those. There's no app for that: it takes the hard work of millions of women and people of color every day. Hard work that is assumed as a "given" by most companies. And this is in no way a critique of white men for not working on these problems: they're not your problems to solve. Just please don't tear us down when all we're trying to to is claw our way up to your level. A little support (even purely verbal) goes a long way.
    - dsacco 9y ago
      Just please don't tear us down when all we're trying to to is claw our way up to your level. A little support (even purely verbal) goes a long way. Here's an honest question so I understand your perspective: what is an example of verbal support that someone could say to, e.g. you, that you believe you would appreciate in the moment and not interpret as patronizing or condescending? My personal experience (and that of others I know who fall into what you'd colloquially call "privileged" groups) is that it feels safer to not remark on an individual's race or gender at all unless you know them really well, even in a positive and supportive way, for fear of it backfiring and being interpreted as bigoted. Maybe you can't come up with an example because it's highly context specific, in which case that's fine, I'm just wondering if you have a comment on delivery in social contexts.
salesguy222 9y ago
I would like to reply tangentially to your comment: I have just been fired by my boss for pretty much no reason other than cost cutting and "I wasn't one of the guys" I brought in plenty of revenue and profit for 3 years. But since I didn't play golf with my boss, they downsized me and gave my responsibilities to someone much less competent but more politically alligned than I.
Bakary 9y ago
I think you bring up great points but I feel the categories are broad enough to be unhelpful, even if there are statistical trends that bind their members together. I think class lines are more relevant than simply "white males" or "women" or "people of color" since people within those categories often have lives so different from one another as to be unrecognizable (think Malala vs. Emma Watson for instance). Ultimately they are also poor strategic choice because they needlessly alienate people that could be supportive of your political goals, and also give detractors additional ammo (for instance the "white worker with black lung" mentioned below) which leads the debate to be derailed for the most part.

dsacco 9y ago

> I think that yours is a typical viewpoint on this topic among white men. I don't mean this as an insult in any way; since that's most likely your entire life experience. Well that's presumptuous.

exelius 9y ago
Not so comfortable when the shoe is on the other foot? Edit: I see I'm getting downvoted for this. I stand by it because this is the exact same type of presumption that is made of women ("Oh, she's 30 -- we shouldn't hire her because she's probably going to get pregnant soon") all the damn time.
- dsacco 9y ago
  > Not so comfortable when the shoe is on the other foot? Hm...I find this particular rhetorical technique to be rather lacking in substance. It's unnecessarily adversarial, and it continues an attempt at persuasion by remarking on the individual's identity rather than the statements. To answer it directly: no, I don't feel defensive about the part of your first comment that I singled out; instead, I think it significantly undermines your (fairly strong, in my opinion) argument. Opening with a comment that assumes the other party's race or gender based on their perspective, then immediately patronizes them for it ("I don't mean this as an insult in any way; since that's most likely your entire life experience.") detracts from what would otherwise be a well-delivered point. I don't want to make this a game of suffering-competition, but here's a thought experiment: would you explicitly mention your assumption about someone's race if you figured they're a minority, then go on to use the sentence, I don't mean this as an insult in any way; since that's most likely your entire life experience. to describe their perspective? Edit to your edit: I understand this is an emotionally charged topic, but even if you are correct that women have to routinely deal with the sort of comment you made towards briholt (and I believe they do), you doing the same to convince others is a poor method of bridging communication and empathy.
  - exelius 9y ago
    I googled his username first, so it wasn't pure presumption.
burkaman 9y ago
It might be an assumption, but you can also just Google Bri Holt and see who it is.
- oh_sigh 9y ago
  Perhaps it's presumptuous in the sense that is presuming that he either has a particular viewpoint because he is male, or that makes can't understand perspective X

briholt 9y ago

Those white male retired coal miners living on welfare in trailer parks and dying of black lung will never understand the plight of middle class office politics.

dismantlethesun 9y ago
Are you a white coal miner dying of black lung? I think the issue here is simple. Some women make complaints about events in their daily lives, and connect it to a wider conflict/issue about the rights and status of women. Let's call these women group A. On the other hand, it seems rare for men to complain in the same way. I've seen men complaining about group A merely having discussions. I've seen men complaining about the treatment of men whom they are not connected to (e.g. coal miners, kindergarden teachers, nurses). However, I rarely see personal gripes. I'd invite you to actually make a personal gripe, because it will be more topical than dragging up an age-old trope.
- exelius 9y ago
  Yes. This. My theory is that Silicon Valley (aka "white men" in the most air-quotes way possible) have moved on to solving the problems of the whole world (whether the world wants them to or not) because they don't have acute social obstacles they have to deal with. The rest of us have things that bother us every day: we work on fixing those. There's no app for that: it takes the hard work of millions of women and people of color every day. Hard work that is assumed as a "given" by most companies. And this is in no way a critique of white men for not working on these problems: they're not your problems to solve. Just please don't tear us down when all we're trying to to is claw our way up to your level. A little support (even purely verbal) goes a long way.
  - dsacco 9y ago
    Just please don't tear us down when all we're trying to to is claw our way up to your level. A little support (even purely verbal) goes a long way. Here's an honest question so I understand your perspective: what is an example of verbal support that someone could say to, e.g. you, that you believe you would appreciate in the moment and not interpret as patronizing or condescending? My personal experience (and that of others I know who fall into what you'd colloquially call "privileged" groups) is that it feels safer to not remark on an individual's race or gender at all unless you know them really well, even in a positive and supportive way, for fear of it backfiring and being interpreted as bigoted. Maybe you can't come up with an example because it's highly context specific, in which case that's fine, I'm just wondering if you have a comment on delivery in social contexts.

salesguy222 9y ago

I would like to reply tangentially to your comment: I have just been fired by my boss for pretty much no reason other than cost cutting and "I wasn't one of the guys" I brought in plenty of revenue and profit for 3 years. But since I didn't play golf with my boss, they downsized me and gave my responsibilities to someone much less competent but more politically alligned than I.

Bakary 9y ago

I think you bring up great points but I feel the categories are broad enough to be unhelpful, even if there are statistical trends that bind their members together. I think class lines are more relevant than simply "white males" or "women" or "people of color" since people within those categories often have lives so different from one another as to be unrecognizable (think Malala vs. Emma Watson for instance). Ultimately they are also poor strategic choice because they needlessly alienate people that could be supportive of your political goals, and also give detractors additional ammo (for instance the "white worker with black lung" mentioned below) which leads the debate to be derailed for the most part.