6 ms·

As someone with truckers in the family, and who discusses it frequently with them, their biggest problems with the 14 hour rules are twofold. (1) It's immutabl

by ethbro 9y ago

As someone with truckers in the family, and who discusses it frequently with them, their biggest problems with the 14 hour rules are twofold. (1) It's immutable, and squeezes them between their dispatchers (who schedule them for 11 hour drives) and remaining legal. If you're running a day load (far better quality of life), then if you hit traffic you're spending the night on the road in your truck, parked wherever you happened to hit the time limit. There's no individual flexibility in terms of "I'll drive less tomorrow to make up for it." (2) Removal of individual agency. Imagine if someone showed up at your desk and told you that you couldn't write any more code because you'd already been coding X hours. Doesn't matter you were on a roll. Doesn't matter that the past 4 hours were lightweight commenting and code formatting. Doesn't matter you were in the middle of writing a solution that finally occurred to you. Just is. Oh, and here's a $500 DOT ticket for trying to jot down some code notes to yourself to salvage your work. I hear and agree that some people feel entitled to bill counter to market. But IMHO the combination of a per-mile-rate, dispatcher-driven scheduling, and absolute regulation is pretty sadistic to truckers. There's a lot more friendly ways the legislation could have been written: work hour cap per week, different classes of CDL / experience levels mean different caps, etc.

s73ver 9y ago
At the same time, without those hard rules, people get pressured to overwork.
InitialLastName 9y ago
> Imagine if someone showed up at your desk and told you that you couldn't write any more code because you'd already been coding X hours. If there were a decent moment-to-moment shot of somebody dying because I was coding tired (rather than a future chance with a barrier of code reviews), it would be totally reasonable to put a really sharp barrier on reducing that risk.
- ethbro 9y ago
  Here's the problem I have with that line of logic: a huge number of trucking accidents are caused by non-trucking road traffic they have to share the road with. Which is completely unregulated with anything like the same strictness. I can only speak to the day trip side, not long-haul multi-day freight. But based on annectdotes, I would say there's (on average) at least one incident per month per driver where the truck has to be driven off the road to avoid a collision with physics-ignorant non-trucking traffic. A friend of a friend was involved in an older lady's death after she pulled out right in front of him (as in, "even the brakes can't slow a truck down that fast" close). Of course he survived in the larger vehicle, but now he has that on his conscience. I don't dispute that freight trucks are dangerous vehicles. But generally speaking, their drivers are far more experienced than you or I - they should be, they do it every day.
  - InitialLastName 9y ago
    That's all fair, and I don't blame truckers for the accidents caused by others. That doesn't change that they have a job involving long stretches of boredom punctuated by very rare, high-stakes, split-second reaction moments, so they shouldn't be allowed to operate past a certain point of fatigue.
    - ethbro 9y ago
      I peeked at some statistics, and it looks like there were around 4,000 fatalities involving large trucks. Out of (I'm assuming this includes commercial vehicles) 35,000 total vehicle fatalities. 11% is not nothing, but it's also not the 89% chunk. Long stretches of boredom punctuated by split-second reaction moments also describes my driving... and I can do that in anything 5 tons or under without any sort of regulation (except a passed driver's license test some number of years ago).
smileysteve 9y ago
Knowing what we know about the effects of sitting on health, it seems drivers would be better with a 3 hour rule.
linkregister 9y ago
I agree the affront to liberty and personal agency is bad. The regulation exists because of the unacceptable collision rate that truckers were having on public roads. Citizens compel the government to act when their relatives die due to a few irresponsible truckers who fall asleep behind the wheel. The truckers in your family are probably responsible and know their limits. Brand new truckers ---or those who don't have the leverage to push back to an employer who expects them to drive dangerously long hours--- might not be responsible.
ryandrake 9y ago
As a member of the public that has to share the road with these monstrosities, I'm eternally grateful truckers' work hours are strongly regulated.
- Voyage_wanderer 9y ago
  And you, and the regulators are very wrong. Since I have eLog in my cab (mandatory for all trucks by the end of the year), I can't cheat in any way. Meaning I'm forced to drive to meet my delivery obligations when I'm falling asleep. I also forced to sit 10 hours during my break, quite often in less than pleasant conditions. I don't need 10 hours for sleep. I need 6. I waste other 4 browsing hacker sites. Then I work 14 hours very much without any meaningful breaks(to browse above mentioned sites). Until recently, before we had elogs, I could juggle a paper log. Now I can't. Now I have the big brother computer, which is totally hackable, thank you government. The monstrosity you so afraid of just became much worse. Now about anyone with little skills can take control over my truck. Trucks are part of IoT nowadays. Just think about it. 40 ton monstrosity connected to Internet
Spooky23 9y ago
The lack of perspective of this comment is amazing. My brother is a DOT guy who regulates this stuff. Their freedom is restricted because given the choice of pissing off the boss and putting people at risk, drivers and companies often choose the later. My brother almost got hit by a semi at a weigh station when it took too long too stop -- because only one brake was functioning. He stopped a Chinatown bus venting exhaust into the cabin, also brakes were on fire. Another time they caught a guy who drove straight through from San Diego to Syracuse on amphetemine. The regulations are there to protect the driving public. Violators are actively policed, and companies who break the rules get shut down.
- ethbro 9y ago
  See my comment above for some of my general problems with trucking vs non-trucking regulation. To your specific points, the company and drivers' interests usually aren't in lockstep. Unfortunately, the company usually has the power. Correct me if I'm wrong on some of the details here. But when a driver's in another city and picks up a trailer that's been overloaded, or one with bad tires or faulty brakes, if they choose to pull it then they're the one that gets nailed with the DOT ticket. Correct? I know some trucking companies have reimbursement policies, but that seems like a really perverse incentive structure. Why not find out who the driver is contracted to for the load & fine the hell out of them? It's their trailer after all! My problem isn't that there's regulation. It's that some pieces (like the above, and the absolute cutoff times for logbooks) seems like it was designed by someone who wasn't overly burdened with imagination, empathy, or an inkling of game theory. (And on the driver-vs-company fines, I'm basing my guess on most of them accruing against the driver by the fact that trucking companies generally seem to be pushing drivers to make the shady choices)
  - Spooky23 9y ago
    I'm not sure of the mechanics of the process, but the regulators know that the drivers are in the middle and they definitely target bad carriers when they can. There's a lot of gaps between what is state regulated and what is federally regulated, and shitty carriers know how to skirt enforcement by basing in low-regulation states and using the best trucks for the longer routes that are federally regulated. The driver shares responsibility. If a trailer is overloaded and has bald tires and brakes, he shouldn't pick it up. The driver has a strong incentive to tow the line as his CDL is his livelihood, and serious violations can affect that. (In addition to his life.) The problem is that the carrier may or may not care and most drivers have little leverage. My uncle was a teamster driver. If he showed up to pick up a load and it was overloaded or unsafe, he'd go to the dock master, tell him to get the overload off the trailer and refuse to pick up. If you work for JimBob Trucking from Alabama, you may be on your own. As for the inflexibility -- you need to be inflexible sometimes. You don't need game theory to state that trucks must have brakes, or that drivers must sleep. The fact is that a human's performance of occupational tasks diminishes as you stay awake. If someone is up for 17 hours, they will perform as if they are drunk.
Broken_Hippo 9y ago
"There's a lot more friendly ways the legislation could ave been written: Work hour cap per week, different classes of CDL/ experience means different caps, etc." Only these do not solve the issue. The issue is that working longer shifts puts people's lives in danger. You could legislate in some worker protections for the driver, making it more likely these things do not happen. But they wouldn't make the laws any less necessary.

by ethbro 9y ago

s73ver 9y ago

At the same time, without those hard rules, people get pressured to overwork.

InitialLastName 9y ago

> Imagine if someone showed up at your desk and told you that you couldn't write any more code because you'd already been coding X hours. If there were a decent moment-to-moment shot of somebody dying because I was coding tired (rather than a future chance with a barrier of code reviews), it would be totally reasonable to put a really sharp barrier on reducing that risk.

ethbro 9y ago
Here's the problem I have with that line of logic: a huge number of trucking accidents are caused by non-trucking road traffic they have to share the road with. Which is completely unregulated with anything like the same strictness. I can only speak to the day trip side, not long-haul multi-day freight. But based on annectdotes, I would say there's (on average) at least one incident per month per driver where the truck has to be driven off the road to avoid a collision with physics-ignorant non-trucking traffic. A friend of a friend was involved in an older lady's death after she pulled out right in front of him (as in, "even the brakes can't slow a truck down that fast" close). Of course he survived in the larger vehicle, but now he has that on his conscience. I don't dispute that freight trucks are dangerous vehicles. But generally speaking, their drivers are far more experienced than you or I - they should be, they do it every day.
- InitialLastName 9y ago
  That's all fair, and I don't blame truckers for the accidents caused by others. That doesn't change that they have a job involving long stretches of boredom punctuated by very rare, high-stakes, split-second reaction moments, so they shouldn't be allowed to operate past a certain point of fatigue.
  - ethbro 9y ago
    I peeked at some statistics, and it looks like there were around 4,000 fatalities involving large trucks. Out of (I'm assuming this includes commercial vehicles) 35,000 total vehicle fatalities. 11% is not nothing, but it's also not the 89% chunk. Long stretches of boredom punctuated by split-second reaction moments also describes my driving... and I can do that in anything 5 tons or under without any sort of regulation (except a passed driver's license test some number of years ago).

smileysteve 9y ago

Knowing what we know about the effects of sitting on health, it seems drivers would be better with a 3 hour rule.

linkregister 9y ago

I agree the affront to liberty and personal agency is bad. The regulation exists because of the unacceptable collision rate that truckers were having on public roads. Citizens compel the government to act when their relatives die due to a few irresponsible truckers who fall asleep behind the wheel. The truckers in your family are probably responsible and know their limits. Brand new truckers ---or those who don't have the leverage to push back to an employer who expects them to drive dangerously long hours--- might not be responsible.

ryandrake 9y ago

As a member of the public that has to share the road with these monstrosities, I'm eternally grateful truckers' work hours are strongly regulated.

Voyage_wanderer 9y ago
And you, and the regulators are very wrong. Since I have eLog in my cab (mandatory for all trucks by the end of the year), I can't cheat in any way. Meaning I'm forced to drive to meet my delivery obligations when I'm falling asleep. I also forced to sit 10 hours during my break, quite often in less than pleasant conditions. I don't need 10 hours for sleep. I need 6. I waste other 4 browsing hacker sites. Then I work 14 hours very much without any meaningful breaks(to browse above mentioned sites). Until recently, before we had elogs, I could juggle a paper log. Now I can't. Now I have the big brother computer, which is totally hackable, thank you government. The monstrosity you so afraid of just became much worse. Now about anyone with little skills can take control over my truck. Trucks are part of IoT nowadays. Just think about it. 40 ton monstrosity connected to Internet

Spooky23 9y ago

The lack of perspective of this comment is amazing. My brother is a DOT guy who regulates this stuff. Their freedom is restricted because given the choice of pissing off the boss and putting people at risk, drivers and companies often choose the later. My brother almost got hit by a semi at a weigh station when it took too long too stop -- because only one brake was functioning. He stopped a Chinatown bus venting exhaust into the cabin, also brakes were on fire. Another time they caught a guy who drove straight through from San Diego to Syracuse on amphetemine. The regulations are there to protect the driving public. Violators are actively policed, and companies who break the rules get shut down.

ethbro 9y ago
See my comment above for some of my general problems with trucking vs non-trucking regulation. To your specific points, the company and drivers' interests usually aren't in lockstep. Unfortunately, the company usually has the power. Correct me if I'm wrong on some of the details here. But when a driver's in another city and picks up a trailer that's been overloaded, or one with bad tires or faulty brakes, if they choose to pull it then they're the one that gets nailed with the DOT ticket. Correct? I know some trucking companies have reimbursement policies, but that seems like a really perverse incentive structure. Why not find out who the driver is contracted to for the load & fine the hell out of them? It's their trailer after all! My problem isn't that there's regulation. It's that some pieces (like the above, and the absolute cutoff times for logbooks) seems like it was designed by someone who wasn't overly burdened with imagination, empathy, or an inkling of game theory. (And on the driver-vs-company fines, I'm basing my guess on most of them accruing against the driver by the fact that trucking companies generally seem to be pushing drivers to make the shady choices)
- Spooky23 9y ago
  I'm not sure of the mechanics of the process, but the regulators know that the drivers are in the middle and they definitely target bad carriers when they can. There's a lot of gaps between what is state regulated and what is federally regulated, and shitty carriers know how to skirt enforcement by basing in low-regulation states and using the best trucks for the longer routes that are federally regulated. The driver shares responsibility. If a trailer is overloaded and has bald tires and brakes, he shouldn't pick it up. The driver has a strong incentive to tow the line as his CDL is his livelihood, and serious violations can affect that. (In addition to his life.) The problem is that the carrier may or may not care and most drivers have little leverage. My uncle was a teamster driver. If he showed up to pick up a load and it was overloaded or unsafe, he'd go to the dock master, tell him to get the overload off the trailer and refuse to pick up. If you work for JimBob Trucking from Alabama, you may be on your own. As for the inflexibility -- you need to be inflexible sometimes. You don't need game theory to state that trucks must have brakes, or that drivers must sleep. The fact is that a human's performance of occupational tasks diminishes as you stay awake. If someone is up for 17 hours, they will perform as if they are drunk.

Broken_Hippo 9y ago

"There's a lot more friendly ways the legislation could ave been written: Work hour cap per week, different classes of CDL/ experience means different caps, etc." Only these do not solve the issue. The issue is that working longer shifts puts people's lives in danger. You could legislate in some worker protections for the driver, making it more likely these things do not happen. But they wouldn't make the laws any less necessary.