8 ms·

It wouldn't be HN without an immediate dismissive comment!

nsxwolf 9y ago
Didn't intend to be dismissive. I think they're awesome. It just seems incorrect to conflate one of these 64k demos with one that runs on, say, a Commodore 64. Context is needed. There's a lot more code actually running.
- skrebbel 9y ago
  That's a straw man. Nobody's conflating anything. This is a PC intro, not a C64 intro and it's advertised as such.
- camperman 9y ago
  Quite true. I personally don't have a problem that PC 64k intros today will leverage the GPU as much as possible, with all the help from the driver code that that implies. It's how they stay current and awesome. Of course anyone writing a 64k intro with no help at all from the GPU except perhaps context creation and teardown is just giving themselves more creative limitations that I would respect.
  - nialv7 9y ago
    There're 64k demos that use software rendering only.
    - raverbashing 9y ago
      Do you know if that's specific category?
    - camperman 9y ago
      Indeed - I used to write them when I was young and had more time :)
    - nialv7 9y ago
      Example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNqpD3Mg9hY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNqpD3Mg9hY
  - Mithaldu 9y ago
    It's unclear what exactly you're agreeing is "true". If you're agreeing with the "incorrect to conflate", then it is true that it would be incorrect, but not true that this needs to be pointed out. With only a little bit of investigation, or even participation, it quickly becomes entirely clear that compos divide entries by hardware, and people in the demoscene don't ask oldschool 64ks to measure up to PC 64ks. I recommend having a look at the various compo blocks on pouet: https://www.youtube.com/user/RevisionParty https://www.youtube.com/user/RevisionParty
    - camperman 9y ago
      > It's unclear what exactly you're agreeing is "true". Everything he said. > If you're agreeing with the "incorrect to conflate", then it is true that it would be incorrect, but not true that this needs to be pointed out. I was agreeing with his sentiment and you're being a pedantic dick. > With only a little bit of investigation, or even participation, it quickly becomes entirely clear that compos divide entries by hardware, and people in the demoscene don't ask oldschool 64ks to measure up to PC 64ks. Really? Gosh, I'd never have guessed. I mean, it's not like I ran the demoscene in my own country for 12 years or was doing my own prods since the late 90s or anything. > I recommend having a look at the various compo blocks on pouet: https://www.youtube.com/user/RevisionParty https://www.youtube.com/user/RevisionParty I recommend you delete your account.
      - Mithaldu 9y ago
        Ah, you're just really bad at communicating and get upset when people don't recognize your innate "cred". I tried to be nice to you because what you said was ambiguous, period. But i guess if that's how you react then you deserve those downvotes.
      - sctb 9y ago
        We've banned this account for repeatedly violating the guidelines after we've asked you many times to stop. We're happy to unban accounts if you email hn@ycombinator.com and we believe you won't do this any more.
- Sharlin 9y ago
  On the other hand, the C64 had standard hardware without a need for abstraction layers, and the hardware was trivial to use from assembly - just put numbers into various memory addresses. Plus the HW natively supported things like sprites and sound synthesis. I guess one of the most difficult platforms for demo programming (in terms of having to write things from scratch) was PC in the DOS/Win16 era. You could get into 320x200x8bit graphics mode quite easily (the so called Mode 13h) but beyond that you were on your own.
  - sofaofthedamned 9y ago
    Yeah, that's true. Still remember the hardware register on the Atari ST $ff8240. Best think about standard hardware was that, if somebody wrote something faster/better than you did then their code was demonstrably better - you couldn't blame it on drivers or anything else. I had this situation with somebody called Darek Mihocka who wrote an accelerated text function for the ST. I beat his code, he then came up with something nearly twice as fast as mine! I went crazy wondering how he did it until the 'move.p' instruction came to me, I shit you not, whilst I was asleep. Good times, and a great way to learn how to code and more importantly what really happens on the machine underlying it.
  - JabavuAdams 9y ago
    Ahh, mode 13h. Fun times.

Didn't intend to be dismissive. I think they're awesome. It just seems incorrect to conflate one of these 64k demos with one that runs on, say, a Commodore 64. Context is needed. There's a lot more code actually running.

skrebbel 9y ago
That's a straw man. Nobody's conflating anything. This is a PC intro, not a C64 intro and it's advertised as such.
camperman 9y ago
Quite true. I personally don't have a problem that PC 64k intros today will leverage the GPU as much as possible, with all the help from the driver code that that implies. It's how they stay current and awesome. Of course anyone writing a 64k intro with no help at all from the GPU except perhaps context creation and teardown is just giving themselves more creative limitations that I would respect.
- nialv7 9y ago
  There're 64k demos that use software rendering only.
  - raverbashing 9y ago
    Do you know if that's specific category?
  - camperman 9y ago
    Indeed - I used to write them when I was young and had more time :)
  - nialv7 9y ago
    Example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNqpD3Mg9hY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNqpD3Mg9hY
- Mithaldu 9y ago
  It's unclear what exactly you're agreeing is "true". If you're agreeing with the "incorrect to conflate", then it is true that it would be incorrect, but not true that this needs to be pointed out. With only a little bit of investigation, or even participation, it quickly becomes entirely clear that compos divide entries by hardware, and people in the demoscene don't ask oldschool 64ks to measure up to PC 64ks. I recommend having a look at the various compo blocks on pouet: https://www.youtube.com/user/RevisionParty https://www.youtube.com/user/RevisionParty
  - camperman 9y ago
    > It's unclear what exactly you're agreeing is "true". Everything he said. > If you're agreeing with the "incorrect to conflate", then it is true that it would be incorrect, but not true that this needs to be pointed out. I was agreeing with his sentiment and you're being a pedantic dick. > With only a little bit of investigation, or even participation, it quickly becomes entirely clear that compos divide entries by hardware, and people in the demoscene don't ask oldschool 64ks to measure up to PC 64ks. Really? Gosh, I'd never have guessed. I mean, it's not like I ran the demoscene in my own country for 12 years or was doing my own prods since the late 90s or anything. > I recommend having a look at the various compo blocks on pouet: https://www.youtube.com/user/RevisionParty https://www.youtube.com/user/RevisionParty I recommend you delete your account.
    - Mithaldu 9y ago
      Ah, you're just really bad at communicating and get upset when people don't recognize your innate "cred". I tried to be nice to you because what you said was ambiguous, period. But i guess if that's how you react then you deserve those downvotes.
    - sctb 9y ago
      We've banned this account for repeatedly violating the guidelines after we've asked you many times to stop. We're happy to unban accounts if you email hn@ycombinator.com and we believe you won't do this any more.
Sharlin 9y ago
On the other hand, the C64 had standard hardware without a need for abstraction layers, and the hardware was trivial to use from assembly - just put numbers into various memory addresses. Plus the HW natively supported things like sprites and sound synthesis. I guess one of the most difficult platforms for demo programming (in terms of having to write things from scratch) was PC in the DOS/Win16 era. You could get into 320x200x8bit graphics mode quite easily (the so called Mode 13h) but beyond that you were on your own.
- sofaofthedamned 9y ago
  Yeah, that's true. Still remember the hardware register on the Atari ST $ff8240. Best think about standard hardware was that, if somebody wrote something faster/better than you did then their code was demonstrably better - you couldn't blame it on drivers or anything else. I had this situation with somebody called Darek Mihocka who wrote an accelerated text function for the ST. I beat his code, he then came up with something nearly twice as fast as mine! I went crazy wondering how he did it until the 'move.p' instruction came to me, I shit you not, whilst I was asleep. Good times, and a great way to learn how to code and more importantly what really happens on the machine underlying it.
- JabavuAdams 9y ago
  Ahh, mode 13h. Fun times.