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It's not really my thing, but Plasma seems like a really solid desktop. What are your complaints with it? And I'll raise this point again: >You and people lik

It's not really my thing, but Plasma seems like a really solid desktop. What are your complaints with it? And I'll raise this point again: >You and people like you are the reason that it's not as good as it could be. I use Linux as my daily driver and it works extremely well. But if you continue to let it languish with a small market share because you can't be bothered to troubleshoot it for 10 minutes or maybe live without that piece of software you need so much, then it won't even go anywhere. Yours is a self defeating attitude. Using proprietary operating systems because Linux isn't there yet is a great way to keep Linux from getting there. It's a chicken and egg problem. What would you prefer: getting your privacy thourougly invaded by a proprietary operating system, or being there to help Linux gain market share and tip the scales? Even if it's not perfect, it's more than enough, and supporting it is the best choice.

Bakary 9y ago
From my perspective as a normal user the trade-off isn't worth it. The pain of using Linux is very real, and the benefits you describe are nebulous and uncertain, considering the amount of time people spend on their computers. I tried really hard to make it work. If it only took 10 minutes of troubleshooting, then it would have been fine, but it was instead hours of crawling through forums. Ultimately, this is a theory of mind issue, since proficient users and developers can't quite seem to grasp how regular joes use the software. Or if they do grasp it, they react with contempt instead of trying to fix the issue. Without making it REALLY convenient there is simply no way it will gain more than a small market share. Whether the contempt is justified is irrelevant if the goal is to have the Year of the Linux Desktop.
int_19h 9y ago
> Using proprietary operating systems because Linux isn't there yet is a great way to keep Linux from getting there. It's a chicken and egg problem. What would you prefer: getting your privacy thourougly invaded by a proprietary operating system, or being there to help Linux gain market share and tip the scales? Even if it's not perfect, it's more than enough, and supporting it is the best choice. The vast majority of people out there see computers (and other devices) as things that get stuff done, right now. They couldn't care less about proprietary vs open source, and the philosophy and the politics of the latter. So there will never be a critical mass that will tip the scales, ever. You'll get the geeks going there because they care, trying to live with the inconveniences for a while, and then mostly going back to OS X (or even Windows), because they find other things to care about, and stop feeling like struggling with xorg.conf or NetworkManager or whatever is meaningfully "fighting against the system".
- exergy 9y ago
  Hits too close to home. It's fun to have an i3wm as a dual boot because it makes me feel "1337". But all my CAD, FEA, CFD, modelling software, they all run better on Windows, if they even run on Linux at all.
- hvidgaard 9y ago
  I used to study with a guy that openly said "Linux is only free if your time has no value". I've tried Linux so many times, and my longest streak was when having a VMWare Workstaion to run Windows in it. Eventually, I just got fed up. First and foremost, I need my systems to just WORK. When I sit down to code, the last thing I want to do is debug why it is not properly displaying on all of my monitors.
  - Piskvorrr 9y ago
    That's not specific to Linux. I don't even want to calculate the time I've spent on this...in recent Windows. Saying "Windows is only worth it if your time has no value" works the same way, and is just as meaningless. In other words, I know no current OS which doesn't suck :((( Win7 held some promise, as did OS X, and current Linuxes hold some still; but alas, we're still not in plug-and-play land after many decades of effort.
    - hvidgaard 9y ago
      I have had 0 issues with multiple monitors, even with different resoluions and switching from one to the other when moving about with a laptop. This is during the last 10 years with various different machines. It just works. But even if you have issues with Windows, I have zero doubt you would spend more time batteling with Linux. It just doesn't have polish or UX as a primary target. It is wonderful for servers, but as a desktop it is a broken experience unless you value tinkering with it.
      - Piskvorrr 9y ago
        Interesting, but for your doubt I have the opposite experience. "Windows update came and took away the working drivers again" is a recurring theme, as are Windows networking issues (on many, many different networks). If I want a system that just works, I have one bootable and installable on a USB drive; for endless tinkering (and fighting against "where do we drag you today?"), there's Windows. Where did that "monitors" issue come in, no idea - typing this on Kubuntu with 3 different displays, also no issues (except for my prankster colleagues unscrewing the video cable). As someone above noted, I don't care about the OS. I care about the work I do on it - and I have the same Jetbrains tools, the same Firefox, the same Chrome, etc etc etc. Whether the title bar is polished, transparent and the exactly right shade of unmagenta, I don't care.
eropple 9y ago
So X decided to reverse my displays today, despite precisely zero patches or changes being applied to the system, and the GUI tool for rearranging them, because life is tremendously too short to go screw with config files to make my GUI work, won't actually save a config file that fixes the problem on reboot. This is fine. This is great. Everyone should waste their time with this. Or not.

Bakary 9y ago

From my perspective as a normal user the trade-off isn't worth it. The pain of using Linux is very real, and the benefits you describe are nebulous and uncertain, considering the amount of time people spend on their computers. I tried really hard to make it work. If it only took 10 minutes of troubleshooting, then it would have been fine, but it was instead hours of crawling through forums. Ultimately, this is a theory of mind issue, since proficient users and developers can't quite seem to grasp how regular joes use the software. Or if they do grasp it, they react with contempt instead of trying to fix the issue. Without making it REALLY convenient there is simply no way it will gain more than a small market share. Whether the contempt is justified is irrelevant if the goal is to have the Year of the Linux Desktop.

int_19h 9y ago

> Using proprietary operating systems because Linux isn't there yet is a great way to keep Linux from getting there. It's a chicken and egg problem. What would you prefer: getting your privacy thourougly invaded by a proprietary operating system, or being there to help Linux gain market share and tip the scales? Even if it's not perfect, it's more than enough, and supporting it is the best choice. The vast majority of people out there see computers (and other devices) as things that get stuff done, right now. They couldn't care less about proprietary vs open source, and the philosophy and the politics of the latter. So there will never be a critical mass that will tip the scales, ever. You'll get the geeks going there because they care, trying to live with the inconveniences for a while, and then mostly going back to OS X (or even Windows), because they find other things to care about, and stop feeling like struggling with xorg.conf or NetworkManager or whatever is meaningfully "fighting against the system".

exergy 9y ago
Hits too close to home. It's fun to have an i3wm as a dual boot because it makes me feel "1337". But all my CAD, FEA, CFD, modelling software, they all run better on Windows, if they even run on Linux at all.
hvidgaard 9y ago
I used to study with a guy that openly said "Linux is only free if your time has no value". I've tried Linux so many times, and my longest streak was when having a VMWare Workstaion to run Windows in it. Eventually, I just got fed up. First and foremost, I need my systems to just WORK. When I sit down to code, the last thing I want to do is debug why it is not properly displaying on all of my monitors.
- Piskvorrr 9y ago
  That's not specific to Linux. I don't even want to calculate the time I've spent on this...in recent Windows. Saying "Windows is only worth it if your time has no value" works the same way, and is just as meaningless. In other words, I know no current OS which doesn't suck :((( Win7 held some promise, as did OS X, and current Linuxes hold some still; but alas, we're still not in plug-and-play land after many decades of effort.
  - hvidgaard 9y ago
    I have had 0 issues with multiple monitors, even with different resoluions and switching from one to the other when moving about with a laptop. This is during the last 10 years with various different machines. It just works. But even if you have issues with Windows, I have zero doubt you would spend more time batteling with Linux. It just doesn't have polish or UX as a primary target. It is wonderful for servers, but as a desktop it is a broken experience unless you value tinkering with it.
    - Piskvorrr 9y ago
      Interesting, but for your doubt I have the opposite experience. "Windows update came and took away the working drivers again" is a recurring theme, as are Windows networking issues (on many, many different networks). If I want a system that just works, I have one bootable and installable on a USB drive; for endless tinkering (and fighting against "where do we drag you today?"), there's Windows. Where did that "monitors" issue come in, no idea - typing this on Kubuntu with 3 different displays, also no issues (except for my prankster colleagues unscrewing the video cable). As someone above noted, I don't care about the OS. I care about the work I do on it - and I have the same Jetbrains tools, the same Firefox, the same Chrome, etc etc etc. Whether the title bar is polished, transparent and the exactly right shade of unmagenta, I don't care.

eropple 9y ago

So X decided to reverse my displays today, despite precisely zero patches or changes being applied to the system, and the GUI tool for rearranging them, because life is tremendously too short to go screw with config files to make my GUI work, won't actually save a config file that fixes the problem on reboot. This is fine. This is great. Everyone should waste their time with this. Or not.