6 ms·

A guide to the latest Mahalo spam techniques

81 points by dazz 16y ago

moultano 16y ago
That isn't really fair to Matt. What he's saying is, show them ranking for a query they shouldn't be, and then he'll start to be concerned.
- mvandemar 16y ago
  That's been done though. Pretty much everything they rank for is from self-voting, manipulation that is contrary to the "democratic nature of the web" that Google wants to leverage. There are plenty of queries that demonstrate that, ones that Matt has indeed been shown.
  - AlexBlom 16y ago
    I'm all for stopping Google Spam, and I don't doubt it is happening in this case but I'm not entirely certain that the case in point is Google Spam. If I am only interested in Star Wars questions a secondary portal is going to be far more interesting to me. I have no problems with the concept. Yes, the execution itself can be questioned with all of the links but can't blame a guy for trying can you?
- raganwald 16y ago
  The essential question I ask is whether Mahalo is gettingthe same treat ment as any other site. So, if you and I launch a site that uses the same "thin affiliate" sites for crosslinking and disregards the other Google rules that Mahalo disregards, will we get a pass or will we get blacklisted? If Cutts ignore our site, then he's being consistent. However, the author of the post contends that Mahalo is getting away with stuff that is getting other sites penalized. That's a very different thing to the question of how well Mahalo ranks.
  - tlack 16y ago
    It seems, from the later demonstrations in the article, that the content is at least somewhat unique on these sites. I think that alone would keep it from being penalized on G.
  - Aaronontheweb 16y ago
    I don't think Google would give Mahalo preferential treatment - although sites like TechCrunch sometimes give us the impression that Jason Calcanis, Google Brass, Kevin Rose, etc... are all part of some sort of untouchable Silicon Valley illuminati, that's really not the case. Google cares more about the quality of its search results than any personal relationship - I don't think they'd hesitate to burn some of Mahalo's domains if they thought it was negatively impacting users.
geuis 16y ago
Hackaday is not a site that was created in the last year.
- JoachimSchipper 16y ago
  I'm sorry, what do you mean?
- geuis 16y ago
  In the list of urls that are in the search results includes hackaday. It's not the only one. I was actually curious about how some of those sites had the mahalo content on them. Some of them are older than mahalo.
ddemchuk 16y ago
I'm gonna go out on a limb here: Who gives a shit? Everyone treats Google like this super police agent who's job is to keep our minds free from digital pollution. Yet 97% of Google's income comes from their ad network, which thrives on having publishers and SERP pages to serve up their advertising customer's creatives. Ultimately, I'm sure Google is fine with this Mahalo stuff, because it means they have more ad space to publish on. What Mahalo has going on is not much different than the major article directory sites like EZine and Associated Content. Search on one of those sites for corn on the cob and I bet you'll find a bunch of similar articles, all plastered with adsense. In fact, I have tools right now that can rewrite an article and allow me submit more corn on the cob articles in under a minute. But you never hear anyone bitch about those sites, because it's User Generated Content. Ultimately, how are they any different? Honestly, knowing what I know about Black Hat SEO Tactics (I know a good amount), I'd rather see someone building out massive crappy content sites than spamming their backlinks everywhere. At least they aren't polluting everyone else's sites by getting XRumer blasts and Blog Comment Spamming.
- tptacek 16y ago
  Look: either they're going to control spam or they're not. But they can't reasonably own all of Internet search and navigation and be capricious about enforcing their intentionally obscure ranking rules. Google demands the benefit of the doubt from the entire Internet. They set this high standard for themselves, and they profit e n o r m o u s l y from the perception that they live up to it.
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
- ryanhuff 16y ago
  Not specific to Mahalo, but I certainly care about search results quality. My recent experience searching out answers to my Android programming questions (doing my first app) have led to frustration as the Google results appear promising, but upon clicking through, I find garbage aggregator websites. This may be a problem on all search engines, but its driving my domain-specific searches to sites like Stack Overflow. I really wish Google would address this issue.
mikerhoads 16y ago
Disclaimer: I used to work for mahalo. You mentioned these sites having no unique or original content but after a few quick searches on questions on the star wars answers sites it was pretty clear that all the ugc is original. True there is not much of it, but thats because the sites are only a few months old at the most. You've proven that the category structure across the sites is similar and that new sites often don't have much content but Google already knows not to grant page rank power to new undeveloped sites. The backlinks from these domains will only carry weight if users engage it and significant content is built...and if that happens then your entire argument goes away. If there are actual users building niche content, I don't really see the problem here. If you don't agree with that then you're making the case against all niche forums and communities just because you don't like the guy.
jellicle 16y ago
Google, for whatever reason, thinks that a very light touch with regard to spam sites is appropriate. (Although Cutts is right that an inurl: or site: query doesn't show anything - he's saying, "Show me a real-world query that has nothing but spammy results and then I'll do something"). I think and have thought that a Google competitor could come along and beat them by having a heavy hand against spam sites. If it's designed to attract search engines, NewGoog doesn't index it, period. Any business generating datafog for search engine consumption gets deindexed entirely and permanently. Go ahead, type any question you want into Google. ANY question at all. You get a list of 500 search engine question spam sites, most of which are written in broken English and contain more or less nonsense strings of words thrown together. NewGoog would wipe all that shit out. Attention Google: offer an option (like SafeSearch) that applies a HEAVY HAND to spam sites. We will love you for it.
- ryanhuff 16y ago
  What's the best way to pass a site over to Matt Cutts? This site has GOT TO GO! http://www.codeweblog.com/ http://www.codeweblog.com/ It is polluting my Google search results. As an example, search for "android intent activity pass". The search result titled "android intent pass variable activity" looks promising, but clicking on it brings you to this site, which contains machine generated nonsense content!
  - mvandemar 16y ago
    Are those Markovian chains, or is someone actually writing that stuff?
  - percept 16y ago
    I've also been seeing it regularly in technical search results, and it seems to have come from nowhere as I don't remember ever seeing it before (the domain's associated with a Chinese address, created 2006).
  - jpenney 16y ago
    I submitted a spam report about that site the other day. I've been getting up to scratch on ruby and a lot of searches for gem names return that site. I have gotten so used to trusting the top results in Google that I never think to check the domain - I need to stop that.
tzs 16y ago
I am having a hard time understanding what he's complaining about. Is there supposed to be something wrong with having a general information site (mahalo) and a bunch of specialized sites (starwarsanswers.com, for example) that contain information on specific topics with links back to the general site?
- hooande 16y ago
  What purpose does this serve? Maybe you could explain to me why someone would do this? What is the benefit of using several different domains instead of subdomains or subfolders on the general site?
  - mikerhoads 16y ago
    Would HN be better or worse if it were just a category on Digg? The specialized domain/community allows users to get into much more detailed discussions about their topics and it helps filter out contributors with just a passing interest. This increases the reliability of the information shared and the quality of the discussions.
  - Jasber 16y ago
    For the same reason StackExchange breaks up their Q/A sites into niches. It's a better experience for the user. It creates a community around the niche. A brand. It builds momentum faster. What if StackOverflow, MathOverflow and Startups were all part of the same general site? It would get messy. It would lose a lot of its value from being domain specific. Also it's better for advertisers. It's a good idea. There's nothing wrong with what Mahalo is doing here.
  - tzs 16y ago
    "Hey Bob! I found the answer to that Star Wars question we were discussing at lunch yesterday on this great site, generalsite.com/topics/starwars". A couple days later, Bob wants to go there to check out another Star Wars question. All Bob remembers is "starwars", and fails to find the site. Compare to "Hey Bob! I found the answer to that Star Wars question we were discussing at lunch yesterday on this great site, starwarsanswers.com". A couple days later, Bob wants to go there to check out another Star Wars question. Bob has a good chance of remembering "starwarsanswers". Separate domains for different topics is more friendly to users. That's probably why Google has no problem with it--as the Google guy said, its impact on users they care about.

81 points by dazz 16y ago

That isn't really fair to Matt. What he's saying is, show them ranking for a query they shouldn't be, and then he'll start to be concerned.

mvandemar 16y ago
That's been done though. Pretty much everything they rank for is from self-voting, manipulation that is contrary to the "democratic nature of the web" that Google wants to leverage. There are plenty of queries that demonstrate that, ones that Matt has indeed been shown.
- AlexBlom 16y ago
  I'm all for stopping Google Spam, and I don't doubt it is happening in this case but I'm not entirely certain that the case in point is Google Spam. If I am only interested in Star Wars questions a secondary portal is going to be far more interesting to me. I have no problems with the concept. Yes, the execution itself can be questioned with all of the links but can't blame a guy for trying can you?
raganwald 16y ago
The essential question I ask is whether Mahalo is gettingthe same treat ment as any other site. So, if you and I launch a site that uses the same "thin affiliate" sites for crosslinking and disregards the other Google rules that Mahalo disregards, will we get a pass or will we get blacklisted? If Cutts ignore our site, then he's being consistent. However, the author of the post contends that Mahalo is getting away with stuff that is getting other sites penalized. That's a very different thing to the question of how well Mahalo ranks.
- tlack 16y ago
  It seems, from the later demonstrations in the article, that the content is at least somewhat unique on these sites. I think that alone would keep it from being penalized on G.
- Aaronontheweb 16y ago
  I don't think Google would give Mahalo preferential treatment - although sites like TechCrunch sometimes give us the impression that Jason Calcanis, Google Brass, Kevin Rose, etc... are all part of some sort of untouchable Silicon Valley illuminati, that's really not the case. Google cares more about the quality of its search results than any personal relationship - I don't think they'd hesitate to burn some of Mahalo's domains if they thought it was negatively impacting users.

geuis 16y ago

Hackaday is not a site that was created in the last year.

JoachimSchipper 16y ago
I'm sorry, what do you mean?
geuis 16y ago
In the list of urls that are in the search results includes hackaday. It's not the only one. I was actually curious about how some of those sites had the mahalo content on them. Some of them are older than mahalo.

ddemchuk 16y ago

I'm gonna go out on a limb here: Who gives a shit? Everyone treats Google like this super police agent who's job is to keep our minds free from digital pollution. Yet 97% of Google's income comes from their ad network, which thrives on having publishers and SERP pages to serve up their advertising customer's creatives. Ultimately, I'm sure Google is fine with this Mahalo stuff, because it means they have more ad space to publish on. What Mahalo has going on is not much different than the major article directory sites like EZine and Associated Content. Search on one of those sites for corn on the cob and I bet you'll find a bunch of similar articles, all plastered with adsense. In fact, I have tools right now that can rewrite an article and allow me submit more corn on the cob articles in under a minute. But you never hear anyone bitch about those sites, because it's User Generated Content. Ultimately, how are they any different? Honestly, knowing what I know about Black Hat SEO Tactics (I know a good amount), I'd rather see someone building out massive crappy content sites than spamming their backlinks everywhere. At least they aren't polluting everyone else's sites by getting XRumer blasts and Blog Comment Spamming.

tptacek 16y ago
Look: either they're going to control spam or they're not. But they can't reasonably own all of Internet search and navigation and be capricious about enforcing their intentionally obscure ranking rules. Google demands the benefit of the doubt from the entire Internet. They set this high standard for themselves, and they profit e n o r m o u s l y from the perception that they live up to it.
deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
ryanhuff 16y ago
Not specific to Mahalo, but I certainly care about search results quality. My recent experience searching out answers to my Android programming questions (doing my first app) have led to frustration as the Google results appear promising, but upon clicking through, I find garbage aggregator websites. This may be a problem on all search engines, but its driving my domain-specific searches to sites like Stack Overflow. I really wish Google would address this issue.

mikerhoads 16y ago

Disclaimer: I used to work for mahalo. You mentioned these sites having no unique or original content but after a few quick searches on questions on the star wars answers sites it was pretty clear that all the ugc is original. True there is not much of it, but thats because the sites are only a few months old at the most. You've proven that the category structure across the sites is similar and that new sites often don't have much content but Google already knows not to grant page rank power to new undeveloped sites. The backlinks from these domains will only carry weight if users engage it and significant content is built...and if that happens then your entire argument goes away. If there are actual users building niche content, I don't really see the problem here. If you don't agree with that then you're making the case against all niche forums and communities just because you don't like the guy.

jellicle 16y ago

Google, for whatever reason, thinks that a very light touch with regard to spam sites is appropriate. (Although Cutts is right that an inurl: or site: query doesn't show anything - he's saying, "Show me a real-world query that has nothing but spammy results and then I'll do something"). I think and have thought that a Google competitor could come along and beat them by having a heavy hand against spam sites. If it's designed to attract search engines, NewGoog doesn't index it, period. Any business generating datafog for search engine consumption gets deindexed entirely and permanently. Go ahead, type any question you want into Google. ANY question at all. You get a list of 500 search engine question spam sites, most of which are written in broken English and contain more or less nonsense strings of words thrown together. NewGoog would wipe all that shit out. Attention Google: offer an option (like SafeSearch) that applies a HEAVY HAND to spam sites. We will love you for it.

ryanhuff 16y ago
What's the best way to pass a site over to Matt Cutts? This site has GOT TO GO! http://www.codeweblog.com/ http://www.codeweblog.com/ It is polluting my Google search results. As an example, search for "android intent activity pass". The search result titled "android intent pass variable activity" looks promising, but clicking on it brings you to this site, which contains machine generated nonsense content!
- mvandemar 16y ago
  Are those Markovian chains, or is someone actually writing that stuff?
- percept 16y ago
  I've also been seeing it regularly in technical search results, and it seems to have come from nowhere as I don't remember ever seeing it before (the domain's associated with a Chinese address, created 2006).
- jpenney 16y ago
  I submitted a spam report about that site the other day. I've been getting up to scratch on ruby and a lot of searches for gem names return that site. I have gotten so used to trusting the top results in Google that I never think to check the domain - I need to stop that.

tzs 16y ago

I am having a hard time understanding what he's complaining about. Is there supposed to be something wrong with having a general information site (mahalo) and a bunch of specialized sites (starwarsanswers.com, for example) that contain information on specific topics with links back to the general site?

hooande 16y ago
What purpose does this serve? Maybe you could explain to me why someone would do this? What is the benefit of using several different domains instead of subdomains or subfolders on the general site?
- mikerhoads 16y ago
  Would HN be better or worse if it were just a category on Digg? The specialized domain/community allows users to get into much more detailed discussions about their topics and it helps filter out contributors with just a passing interest. This increases the reliability of the information shared and the quality of the discussions.
- Jasber 16y ago
  For the same reason StackExchange breaks up their Q/A sites into niches. It's a better experience for the user. It creates a community around the niche. A brand. It builds momentum faster. What if StackOverflow, MathOverflow and Startups were all part of the same general site? It would get messy. It would lose a lot of its value from being domain specific. Also it's better for advertisers. It's a good idea. There's nothing wrong with what Mahalo is doing here.
- tzs 16y ago
  "Hey Bob! I found the answer to that Star Wars question we were discussing at lunch yesterday on this great site, generalsite.com/topics/starwars". A couple days later, Bob wants to go there to check out another Star Wars question. All Bob remembers is "starwars", and fails to find the site. Compare to "Hey Bob! I found the answer to that Star Wars question we were discussing at lunch yesterday on this great site, starwarsanswers.com". A couple days later, Bob wants to go there to check out another Star Wars question. Bob has a good chance of remembering "starwarsanswers". Separate domains for different topics is more friendly to users. That's probably why Google has no problem with it--as the Google guy said, its impact on users they care about.