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The guy wants advice on "how", not some words to make him feel better about not doing stuff, so let's give him that. > for most people this is an exercise that

The guy wants advice on "how", not some words to make him feel better about not doing stuff, so let's give him that. > for most people this is an exercise that will in the long run lead to burnout. Your mind is already subconsciously telling you this. I want to point out that this is one of the reasons why people never start things. Let me share my experience as someone who has started, AND burned out, multiple times. Hopefully this helps people change their beliefs. 1. Yes you are right that you will burn out if you push yourself too hard, but this only happens if the result is not satisfying enough compared to the effort you pour in. From my multiple experiences where some I succeeded and some failed, I only burned out enough to give up when things weren't going well despite the effort I put in. I guarantee you you WILL NOT burn out if your thing goes well. 2. Another mistake people make is thinking that burning out is like dying, and you can't recover. This is why people want to "save it for the best" and don't commit 100%, because they "want to be able to commit 100% only when they truly really come across the perfect opportunity". But the thing is, these people NEVER end up doing anything because of the law of inertia. "The perfect opportunity" is an elusive thing, and the more you wait, the higher the bar goes up, which means you will never meet that perfect moment. 3. Burning out is a phase, not the end. I've burned out multiple times, and stopped working for a couple of months to several months (and did nothing but entertain myself). But eventually you recover and can't wait to start a new thing. This never happens to people who wait for the perfect moment because they don't even know what it feels like. They think there's only one chance. 4. Don't try to bend the spoon. It's impossible. Instead, only realize the truth. There is no spoon. Then you will see that it is not the spoon that bends, it is yourself.

UnpossibleJim 9y ago
I will counter with one (older person's, I guess) observation of a bunch of my friends who are now in their early to mid fourties and late thirties. The one's who focus on making a career and accomplishments, be they for social value or greater equality for all or the justice in society being more balanced, etc. etc...... anyway, they end up at my age, when naturally, the larger group starts to drift apart a bit, looking around alone with their accomplishments being their only companion. That's great if you are only driven by business success/societal accolades. Super awesome and congratulations. You've figured out what makes you happy and I commend you. That isn't most people. Take some of that spare time and energy and go out, meet some people and have some fun. Blow off some steam. Have some sex. Meet four or five significant others. Pair them down to the point where you're both (or whatever) are happy. Build a life together. And stop rushing around. I know a bunch (most) of friends who are on their third or fourth spouse because they were in such a hurry to get things done, they never took the time to figure out who their significant other was, who their friends were or why they liked them or who, in fact, they really were. Don't fill the hole inside of yourself with hollow accolades and useless trophies. Take some time to figure out who you are and what is really going to make you happy. Experiment with different things. Fail. Try something else... You know. Live your life. Have fun. Now. That being said. I doubt this will be an overly popular sentiment. But when their friends start dying, they'll see them all start saying the same sorts of things, and none of them are, "I wish I'd spent more time working." P.S. If you want to figure some stuff out and do some good, go volunteer at an eldercare facility. That can be you in 50 years (I'm guessing at ages here, forgive me). Sitting in a home, alone for the most part, wishing people would visit. Building a happy life with strong relationships is important to the society at large. Trust me. Society without happy people without friends is fucking terrifying.
- cocktailpeanuts 9y ago
  Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I agree with a lot of what you say. That said, OP is looking for advice on how to do things, not a pat on the back for living a stress-free life, which is why I provided one.
- Xcelerate 9y ago
  > But when their friends start dying, they'll see them all start saying the same sorts of things, and none of them are, "I wish I'd spent more time working." I hear this a lot. But I'm not sure if this is always true. I chose an education path that required a much greater amount of work than other paths I could have taken. I would spend weekends working on homework and projects when others were out having fun. But as I start my career, it seems to have paid off (so far). I have a better work/life balance than many of my friends due to sacrificing some free time earlier in life. Now I wonder: if I work hard in my 20s, can I retire a decade earlier that I otherwise might have? Or (more likely) can I save up enough that I can start spending my time working on projects that are entirely self-driven? Saving and working hard early in life can also result in a lot more time to spend with family later on. In other words, there is a tradeoff between voluntarily working harder earlier in life and effectively being forced to work hard later in life. Sure, you could be struck by a meteorite today, and you would never reap the reward from all of the work that you put in, but the much more likely scenario is that if you don't put in enough work in the front end, you will end up working 9-5 at 70 years old. So I can see many possible situations arising later in life where I think "I wish I spent more time working".
  - TheArcane 9y ago
    Just curious, what kind of a career do you have?
    - Xcelerate 9y ago
      B.S. chemical engineer -> Ph.D. chemical engineer -> data scientist The "working a lot" was mostly the last couple years of my Ph.D. where I would frequently pull all-nighters to finish everything I needed to, but I'm glad I did that now. It's not nearly the optimal path for rapid wealth accumulation, but it's a good balance between having work that I enjoy and having enough leftover time to work on startup projects and hang out with my family.
algesten 9y ago
> I guarantee you you WILL NOT burn out if your thing goes well. I strongly disagree with this. I'm a compulsive person, I used to say yes to everything, I enjoy everything. I don't think I ever spent effort towards something that wasn't rewarding in some way or other. However. Stress is stress and it can be negative or positive. Stress makes you perform better, adrenaline pumping, your senses sharpen. It can all be in a positive loop with great feedback, everyone loving what you do, amazing results, and still you end up burnt out. My stress manifests physically, "skipped" heartbeats, adrenaline rushes when waking up in the night, I even got atricular fibrilation (AF) and was hospitalised to be "reset" through one of those heart machines you see in ER. I was convinced there was something very wrong with me. Heart problem? Doctors did test after test, and nothing. I learnt my lesson, I know how to recognise the signs now. I can manage it by just taking care of myself. But guess what, every single thing I do is fun, positive, great feedback.
- cocktailpeanuts 9y ago
  Well, it's great that you found out your boundaries! Most people never do things that push their comfort zone and never find that out, and live their lives wondering what it would have been like. Sounds like you have a medical condition for dealing with stress, but most people don't have that kind of condition, so obviously if you have that kind of condition you should watch out for yourself, health is everything.
  - algesten 9y ago
    I've been in plenty medical investigation for this. I'm quite sure there isn't anything physically wrong with me. Also. The fact that I can control it by observing the signs my body gives me...
  - Saanti 9y ago
    Cortisol levels can deplete for anyone, the rates and levels vary per person.
- manmal 9y ago
  Are you 100% sure that it was positive stress that got you into the ER? I myself distinguish between stress (=anxiety of not meeting goals in time), and positive motivation (=joy, and not the caffeine one). Sadly, I haven't had much of the second type in recent years, but it's something I'm working on. It sounds as if your HPA axis gets super worked up and your body enters fight or flight mode, causing your heart to go crazy. That's what kept happening to me until I actively took care of the underlying stresses or beliefs I have while coding ("I'm not gonna make it" / "I won't have the time to finish it" / "I won't finish this task today but I desperately want to"...). I didn't get heart symptoms, but rather fatigue and anhedonia. Just some thoughts on caffeine, since I think stress in programmers is often caused by it, or covered up: I only very rarely have caffeine, and rather do vitamins if I need to be more stress resistant (Vit C, D, K2, Pantethine and sometimes B vitamins). That way I'm not fooled by the motivation that comes with caffeine, which somehow covers up what I really want to do. If I have caffeine I get giddy about the thought of writing this and that tool, while I couldn't care less when off caffeine.
ThrowawayP 9y ago
> Another mistake people make is thinking that burning out is like dying, and you can't recover. Speak for yourself, buddy. I'm still trying to overcome medical issues from my last bout with burnout, including sleep disturbances and stress-related gastritis, and so far the medical profession hasn't had much luck in dealing with any of them. Burnout and the stress that goes along with it can absolutely do lasting damage to your body.
- cocktailpeanuts 9y ago
  Just curious. How long has it been?
  - ZenoArrow 9y ago
    cocktailpeanuts, one question, how would you describe the feeling of burnout?
    - cocktailpeanuts 9y ago
      You can't. Because it's impossible to describe how hard it was for me in words, you would have to experience it yourself. When I say "burnout", I don't just mean mental burnout. I've even been in situations where I went completely broke, lived homeless, and much more sensitive details I can't talk about on a public forum. Of course it doesn't have to be all life threatening to qualify as a "burnout". I've been through more moderate burnouts where I just couldn't keep up mentally. I started doubting humanity (I still haven't fully recovered from this and don't think I ever will). But overall, these are things you can't just describe. Even if I did, people who've never been through one will never understand.
      - ZenoArrow 9y ago
        Thank you for your reply. I have been close to burnout before, so I have some idea what it's like, I was just curious what it was like for you. I can't quite figure out something you said earlier... "But eventually you recover and can't wait to start a new thing." ...when compared to... "I still haven't fully recovered from this and don't think I ever will" Do you find some value in lessons you've learned from burnout? That's the only way I can think of to understand both statements together.
shubhamjain 9y ago
The crux of the problem is overlooking how work can be "positive" too. 9-5 can be pure drudgery that drains every ounce of your energy, but if you can find work that is fulfilling, putting additional hours won't exhaust you; in fact, I think it'll recompense your lost spirit at job. I would go far as to say that, expending your time in watching TV, video games, social media is more wearing than people realise. I have seen myself exhausted on days where I managed to do nothing at work; and highly motivated, when I achieved something significant.
benchaney 9y ago
> The guy wants advice on "how", not some words to make him feel better about not doing stuff, so let's give him that. Why don't we just tell him what he wants to hear instead of actually giving him good advice? Give me a break.

UnpossibleJim 9y ago

I will counter with one (older person's, I guess) observation of a bunch of my friends who are now in their early to mid fourties and late thirties. The one's who focus on making a career and accomplishments, be they for social value or greater equality for all or the justice in society being more balanced, etc. etc...... anyway, they end up at my age, when naturally, the larger group starts to drift apart a bit, looking around alone with their accomplishments being their only companion. That's great if you are only driven by business success/societal accolades. Super awesome and congratulations. You've figured out what makes you happy and I commend you. That isn't most people. Take some of that spare time and energy and go out, meet some people and have some fun. Blow off some steam. Have some sex. Meet four or five significant others. Pair them down to the point where you're both (or whatever) are happy. Build a life together. And stop rushing around. I know a bunch (most) of friends who are on their third or fourth spouse because they were in such a hurry to get things done, they never took the time to figure out who their significant other was, who their friends were or why they liked them or who, in fact, they really were. Don't fill the hole inside of yourself with hollow accolades and useless trophies. Take some time to figure out who you are and what is really going to make you happy. Experiment with different things. Fail. Try something else... You know. Live your life. Have fun. Now. That being said. I doubt this will be an overly popular sentiment. But when their friends start dying, they'll see them all start saying the same sorts of things, and none of them are, "I wish I'd spent more time working." P.S. If you want to figure some stuff out and do some good, go volunteer at an eldercare facility. That can be you in 50 years (I'm guessing at ages here, forgive me). Sitting in a home, alone for the most part, wishing people would visit. Building a happy life with strong relationships is important to the society at large. Trust me. Society without happy people without friends is fucking terrifying.

cocktailpeanuts 9y ago
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I agree with a lot of what you say. That said, OP is looking for advice on how to do things, not a pat on the back for living a stress-free life, which is why I provided one.
Xcelerate 9y ago
> But when their friends start dying, they'll see them all start saying the same sorts of things, and none of them are, "I wish I'd spent more time working." I hear this a lot. But I'm not sure if this is always true. I chose an education path that required a much greater amount of work than other paths I could have taken. I would spend weekends working on homework and projects when others were out having fun. But as I start my career, it seems to have paid off (so far). I have a better work/life balance than many of my friends due to sacrificing some free time earlier in life. Now I wonder: if I work hard in my 20s, can I retire a decade earlier that I otherwise might have? Or (more likely) can I save up enough that I can start spending my time working on projects that are entirely self-driven? Saving and working hard early in life can also result in a lot more time to spend with family later on. In other words, there is a tradeoff between voluntarily working harder earlier in life and effectively being forced to work hard later in life. Sure, you could be struck by a meteorite today, and you would never reap the reward from all of the work that you put in, but the much more likely scenario is that if you don't put in enough work in the front end, you will end up working 9-5 at 70 years old. So I can see many possible situations arising later in life where I think "I wish I spent more time working".
- TheArcane 9y ago
  Just curious, what kind of a career do you have?
  - Xcelerate 9y ago
    B.S. chemical engineer -> Ph.D. chemical engineer -> data scientist The "working a lot" was mostly the last couple years of my Ph.D. where I would frequently pull all-nighters to finish everything I needed to, but I'm glad I did that now. It's not nearly the optimal path for rapid wealth accumulation, but it's a good balance between having work that I enjoy and having enough leftover time to work on startup projects and hang out with my family.

algesten 9y ago

> I guarantee you you WILL NOT burn out if your thing goes well. I strongly disagree with this. I'm a compulsive person, I used to say yes to everything, I enjoy everything. I don't think I ever spent effort towards something that wasn't rewarding in some way or other. However. Stress is stress and it can be negative or positive. Stress makes you perform better, adrenaline pumping, your senses sharpen. It can all be in a positive loop with great feedback, everyone loving what you do, amazing results, and still you end up burnt out. My stress manifests physically, "skipped" heartbeats, adrenaline rushes when waking up in the night, I even got atricular fibrilation (AF) and was hospitalised to be "reset" through one of those heart machines you see in ER. I was convinced there was something very wrong with me. Heart problem? Doctors did test after test, and nothing. I learnt my lesson, I know how to recognise the signs now. I can manage it by just taking care of myself. But guess what, every single thing I do is fun, positive, great feedback.

cocktailpeanuts 9y ago
Well, it's great that you found out your boundaries! Most people never do things that push their comfort zone and never find that out, and live their lives wondering what it would have been like. Sounds like you have a medical condition for dealing with stress, but most people don't have that kind of condition, so obviously if you have that kind of condition you should watch out for yourself, health is everything.
- algesten 9y ago
  I've been in plenty medical investigation for this. I'm quite sure there isn't anything physically wrong with me. Also. The fact that I can control it by observing the signs my body gives me...
- Saanti 9y ago
  Cortisol levels can deplete for anyone, the rates and levels vary per person.
manmal 9y ago
Are you 100% sure that it was positive stress that got you into the ER? I myself distinguish between stress (=anxiety of not meeting goals in time), and positive motivation (=joy, and not the caffeine one). Sadly, I haven't had much of the second type in recent years, but it's something I'm working on. It sounds as if your HPA axis gets super worked up and your body enters fight or flight mode, causing your heart to go crazy. That's what kept happening to me until I actively took care of the underlying stresses or beliefs I have while coding ("I'm not gonna make it" / "I won't have the time to finish it" / "I won't finish this task today but I desperately want to"...). I didn't get heart symptoms, but rather fatigue and anhedonia. Just some thoughts on caffeine, since I think stress in programmers is often caused by it, or covered up: I only very rarely have caffeine, and rather do vitamins if I need to be more stress resistant (Vit C, D, K2, Pantethine and sometimes B vitamins). That way I'm not fooled by the motivation that comes with caffeine, which somehow covers up what I really want to do. If I have caffeine I get giddy about the thought of writing this and that tool, while I couldn't care less when off caffeine.

ThrowawayP 9y ago

> Another mistake people make is thinking that burning out is like dying, and you can't recover. Speak for yourself, buddy. I'm still trying to overcome medical issues from my last bout with burnout, including sleep disturbances and stress-related gastritis, and so far the medical profession hasn't had much luck in dealing with any of them. Burnout and the stress that goes along with it can absolutely do lasting damage to your body.

cocktailpeanuts 9y ago
Just curious. How long has it been?
- ZenoArrow 9y ago
  cocktailpeanuts, one question, how would you describe the feeling of burnout?
  - cocktailpeanuts 9y ago
    You can't. Because it's impossible to describe how hard it was for me in words, you would have to experience it yourself. When I say "burnout", I don't just mean mental burnout. I've even been in situations where I went completely broke, lived homeless, and much more sensitive details I can't talk about on a public forum. Of course it doesn't have to be all life threatening to qualify as a "burnout". I've been through more moderate burnouts where I just couldn't keep up mentally. I started doubting humanity (I still haven't fully recovered from this and don't think I ever will). But overall, these are things you can't just describe. Even if I did, people who've never been through one will never understand.
    - ZenoArrow 9y ago
      Thank you for your reply. I have been close to burnout before, so I have some idea what it's like, I was just curious what it was like for you. I can't quite figure out something you said earlier... "But eventually you recover and can't wait to start a new thing." ...when compared to... "I still haven't fully recovered from this and don't think I ever will" Do you find some value in lessons you've learned from burnout? That's the only way I can think of to understand both statements together.

shubhamjain 9y ago

The crux of the problem is overlooking how work can be "positive" too. 9-5 can be pure drudgery that drains every ounce of your energy, but if you can find work that is fulfilling, putting additional hours won't exhaust you; in fact, I think it'll recompense your lost spirit at job. I would go far as to say that, expending your time in watching TV, video games, social media is more wearing than people realise. I have seen myself exhausted on days where I managed to do nothing at work; and highly motivated, when I achieved something significant.

benchaney 9y ago

> The guy wants advice on "how", not some words to make him feel better about not doing stuff, so let's give him that. Why don't we just tell him what he wants to hear instead of actually giving him good advice? Give me a break.