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Good points, and although we may have different worldviews you have some neat ideas. The problem I was trying to address in my comment was organizational inert

Good points, and although we may have different worldviews you have some neat ideas. The problem I was trying to address in my comment was organizational inertia. If you have scores of people in a big building creating their own system of doing things, it becomes impossible to change those ways. It's not a matter of policy, philosophy, or whatnot. It's simply the way large groups of people operate. You might be able to take those same teachers and administrators, put them in tents in a park next door, and have vastly-improved results. Or not. Whatever your philosophy of "how to do good school", if it's not working in a particular instance, you have to deal with the organizational inertia first and foremost no matter how you'd like the rest of the game to play out.

analog31 9y ago
In my view, the "organization" we're dealing with is the economic and environmental milieu that kids are exposed to from birth. Focusing on schools rather than addressing, e.g., segregation, is organizational inertia on a grand scale. Better segregated schools is like faster horses. Randomly assigning kids to schools would create a dis-incentive for schools to depend on segregation to achieve their results.
- DanielBMarkham 9y ago
  So your thesis is that it's silly to talk about school effectiveness because of the larger socio-economic condition of the population. In other words, given certain external conditions, there should be no successful schools. Proceeding down this path of analysis, you should find counter-examples, if they exist, and begin listing conditions that make schooling impossible. Also not my point, but certainly a fun exercise. So close the schools, provide the useful public services they offer (if any), and work on the larger conditions. The question remains whether or not the political structure that is paying for and supporting these organizations is honest enough to stop the dysfunction when it's thrust in their face. Even in your scenario, close them. ADD: I want to point out that there is this Stupid Human Trick we all do: when presented with a situation that involves difficult-yet-implementable decisions, we point to some larger, impossible-to-solve situation and demand that this situation be addressed first. It's a way not to deal with things. I've spent decades watching Cold War arguments play out with "Well, if we had peace in the Middle East, these other things would also fall into line" We were never getting peace in the Middle East. But it was easier just to throw their hands up and ask for the moon than it was to make the simple, immediate decision that was achievable.
  - analog31 9y ago
    So your thesis is that it's silly to talk about school effectiveness because of the larger socio-economic condition of the population. No.

analog31 9y ago

In my view, the "organization" we're dealing with is the economic and environmental milieu that kids are exposed to from birth. Focusing on schools rather than addressing, e.g., segregation, is organizational inertia on a grand scale. Better segregated schools is like faster horses. Randomly assigning kids to schools would create a dis-incentive for schools to depend on segregation to achieve their results.

DanielBMarkham 9y ago
So your thesis is that it's silly to talk about school effectiveness because of the larger socio-economic condition of the population. In other words, given certain external conditions, there should be no successful schools. Proceeding down this path of analysis, you should find counter-examples, if they exist, and begin listing conditions that make schooling impossible. Also not my point, but certainly a fun exercise. So close the schools, provide the useful public services they offer (if any), and work on the larger conditions. The question remains whether or not the political structure that is paying for and supporting these organizations is honest enough to stop the dysfunction when it's thrust in their face. Even in your scenario, close them. ADD: I want to point out that there is this Stupid Human Trick we all do: when presented with a situation that involves difficult-yet-implementable decisions, we point to some larger, impossible-to-solve situation and demand that this situation be addressed first. It's a way not to deal with things. I've spent decades watching Cold War arguments play out with "Well, if we had peace in the Middle East, these other things would also fall into line" We were never getting peace in the Middle East. But it was easier just to throw their hands up and ask for the moon than it was to make the simple, immediate decision that was achievable.
- analog31 9y ago
  So your thesis is that it's silly to talk about school effectiveness because of the larger socio-economic condition of the population. No.