4 ms·

Why would you latch onto fatherlessness rather than poverty, lack of safety, or lack of a healthy environment?

humanrebar 9y ago
1. Single parent households have it harder on average. In American culture, that generally means that mothers (and grandmothers) raise the kids, not the dads. "Fatherlessness" is shorthand for this. 2. Men actually bring some things to family and neighborhood culture. Some people might get offended at this notion, but it's not controversial to say that femininity is wonderful, distinctive, and has special things to offer. But this must also be true of masculinity. I'd argue that men, generally speaking, have different ways to approach the problems you list. This is applying the "diversity makes us better" principle in a place really needing some new ideas and new strength.
- extra88 9y ago
  > have it harder on average "Harder" meaning the affects of poverty, right? Having two parents involved is only one way to address that. Starting with talking about fatherlessness and "culture" is blaming the victims and, frankly, racist. I'm not saying a cycle of negative learned behaviors is irrelevant but there are so many other factors to address first.
  - humanrebar 9y ago
    > "Harder" meaning the affects of poverty, right? Having two parents involved is only one way to address that. Not just poverty. Middle class single parent households have it harder than equivalent two parent households as well. We respect good single parents especially because we recognize how much harder it is to, say, take classes in the evening or lead the PTA if you're also making sure your kids are clothed, educated, fed, nurtured, safe, and so on. > Starting with talking about fatherlessness and "culture" is blaming the victims and, frankly, racist. I don't think this cultural issue is unique to black communities or even urban ones. I've already posted on race and fatherlessness: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14387245 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14387245 Please stop attacking allies. There's enough convincing to do without outgrouping and ending discussions of important issues by throwing around conversation killing (and frankly inaccurate) epithets. ...as far as blaming victims... I'm not interested in putting anyone in stockades on any of this. I do think we need to recalibrate our cultural calculus on what kids need to properly thrive. Home situations should absolutely be on the table, not for the purpose of judging, but for the purpose of setting expectations for prospective parents, people deciding whether to make marriages work, people picking out potential mates, etc. Part of the problem, in my mind, is that in our effort to avoid victim blaming, we framed certain life choices as valid forms of self actualization instead of truthfully really hard situations. There has to be a way to be supportive and loving to single parents without also misleading the next generation into thinking that finding committed partners isn't also a big priority. > ...there are so many other factors to address first. Are there? Why is the social injustice of family structure on the bottom of the list?
PKop 9y ago
What makes you think growing up without fathers, especially surrounded by other challenging environmental factors as well, wouldn't have a massive negative effect on discipline, structure, education, social development, etc? What is it exactly about highlighting this disparity so offends people's sensibilities? Do you think avoiding this aspect in discussion is helpful?
- tboyd47 9y ago
  I don't think it's so much avoiding the topic than recognizing its lack of relevance. There's no solution for an epidemic of fatherlessness, and besides, lots of people grow up without their fathers and do great. Just look at Navon from the video. It seems like he's off to a great start. There are tons of stories like him. And as I mentioned before, there are much more obvious problems at work here than fatherlessness. Focusing only on the fact that these kids don't have fathers and ignoring all the other challenges they face is kind of myopic. If you want to discuss an issue, then let's discuss the whole issue.
  - PKop 9y ago
    > There's no solution for an epidemic of fatherlessness Bold claim. > lots of people grow up without their fathers and do great. "Lot's of people" succeed in poor families, in bad schools, in communities with crime. Trends and magnitude matter. If the "single-parent" households were more equal across race, then perhaps it wouldn't be an area to focus on. But they aren't. > ignoring all the other challenges No.. > there are much more obvious problems at work here than fatherlessness > recognizing its lack of relevance. I don't understand people who dismiss disparities between the fundamental societal structure, the core environment a child grows up in, the nuclear family, of one race to another as being insignificant. I really don't understand how people can overlook its impact. It even affects schooling and education, discipline, taking a role in ensuring a focus on "homework" vs getting in trouble / distracted outside of classroom, who children hang out with, why they fall into groups of bad influence as a proxy for male authority figures etc etc etc. (I am NOT saying single mothers have no impact as well or that they are incompetent. Simply, that their job is made that much harder, and fathers have at least as much impact on child rearing as mothers, perhaps more in certain specific areas or for boys perhaps, and so cutting the parental contribution in half might have detrimental effects.) http://educationnext.org/one-parent-students-leave-school-earlier/ http://educationnext.org/one-parent-students-leave-school-ea... "Family structure has grown in importance over time"

1. Single parent households have it harder on average. In American culture, that generally means that mothers (and grandmothers) raise the kids, not the dads. "Fatherlessness" is shorthand for this. 2. Men actually bring some things to family and neighborhood culture. Some people might get offended at this notion, but it's not controversial to say that femininity is wonderful, distinctive, and has special things to offer. But this must also be true of masculinity. I'd argue that men, generally speaking, have different ways to approach the problems you list. This is applying the "diversity makes us better" principle in a place really needing some new ideas and new strength.

extra88 9y ago
> have it harder on average "Harder" meaning the affects of poverty, right? Having two parents involved is only one way to address that. Starting with talking about fatherlessness and "culture" is blaming the victims and, frankly, racist. I'm not saying a cycle of negative learned behaviors is irrelevant but there are so many other factors to address first.
- humanrebar 9y ago
  > "Harder" meaning the affects of poverty, right? Having two parents involved is only one way to address that. Not just poverty. Middle class single parent households have it harder than equivalent two parent households as well. We respect good single parents especially because we recognize how much harder it is to, say, take classes in the evening or lead the PTA if you're also making sure your kids are clothed, educated, fed, nurtured, safe, and so on. > Starting with talking about fatherlessness and "culture" is blaming the victims and, frankly, racist. I don't think this cultural issue is unique to black communities or even urban ones. I've already posted on race and fatherlessness: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14387245 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14387245 Please stop attacking allies. There's enough convincing to do without outgrouping and ending discussions of important issues by throwing around conversation killing (and frankly inaccurate) epithets. ...as far as blaming victims... I'm not interested in putting anyone in stockades on any of this. I do think we need to recalibrate our cultural calculus on what kids need to properly thrive. Home situations should absolutely be on the table, not for the purpose of judging, but for the purpose of setting expectations for prospective parents, people deciding whether to make marriages work, people picking out potential mates, etc. Part of the problem, in my mind, is that in our effort to avoid victim blaming, we framed certain life choices as valid forms of self actualization instead of truthfully really hard situations. There has to be a way to be supportive and loving to single parents without also misleading the next generation into thinking that finding committed partners isn't also a big priority. > ...there are so many other factors to address first. Are there? Why is the social injustice of family structure on the bottom of the list?

PKop 9y ago

What makes you think growing up without fathers, especially surrounded by other challenging environmental factors as well, wouldn't have a massive negative effect on discipline, structure, education, social development, etc? What is it exactly about highlighting this disparity so offends people's sensibilities? Do you think avoiding this aspect in discussion is helpful?

tboyd47 9y ago
I don't think it's so much avoiding the topic than recognizing its lack of relevance. There's no solution for an epidemic of fatherlessness, and besides, lots of people grow up without their fathers and do great. Just look at Navon from the video. It seems like he's off to a great start. There are tons of stories like him. And as I mentioned before, there are much more obvious problems at work here than fatherlessness. Focusing only on the fact that these kids don't have fathers and ignoring all the other challenges they face is kind of myopic. If you want to discuss an issue, then let's discuss the whole issue.
- PKop 9y ago
  > There's no solution for an epidemic of fatherlessness Bold claim. > lots of people grow up without their fathers and do great. "Lot's of people" succeed in poor families, in bad schools, in communities with crime. Trends and magnitude matter. If the "single-parent" households were more equal across race, then perhaps it wouldn't be an area to focus on. But they aren't. > ignoring all the other challenges No.. > there are much more obvious problems at work here than fatherlessness > recognizing its lack of relevance. I don't understand people who dismiss disparities between the fundamental societal structure, the core environment a child grows up in, the nuclear family, of one race to another as being insignificant. I really don't understand how people can overlook its impact. It even affects schooling and education, discipline, taking a role in ensuring a focus on "homework" vs getting in trouble / distracted outside of classroom, who children hang out with, why they fall into groups of bad influence as a proxy for male authority figures etc etc etc. (I am NOT saying single mothers have no impact as well or that they are incompetent. Simply, that their job is made that much harder, and fathers have at least as much impact on child rearing as mothers, perhaps more in certain specific areas or for boys perhaps, and so cutting the parental contribution in half might have detrimental effects.) http://educationnext.org/one-parent-students-leave-school-earlier/ http://educationnext.org/one-parent-students-leave-school-ea... "Family structure has grown in importance over time"