36 ms·

> Last year, not one student scored proficient > in any state testing. > > “That’s absurd to me. That’s absurd to me,” says > Warren’s mother Janel Nels

by lhnz 9y ago

> Last year, not one student scored proficient > in any state testing. > > “That’s absurd to me. That’s absurd to me,” says > Warren’s mother Janel Nelson. “That’s your teachers > report card, ultimately.” This is bad. Teaching is an incredibly stressful job and putting more pressure on teachers only causes them to leave to schools in which their effort pays off. Children need to be taught to take on more autonomy for their grades and other outcomes in their life. It's okay if they need to be spoon-fed a little bit when they first join a school, but they must be weaned off this if they are to have a chance in the "real world".

benchaney 9y ago
It's ridiculous to blame the students in this case. If every single student failed, that is either a problem with the teacher, or a problem with the test.
- pmorici 9y ago
  Problem with the parents.
  - benchaney 9y ago
    Every parent in the school? If it were a problem with a handful of students maybe, but if every student fails, there is a more systematic issue at play.
    - pmorici 9y ago
      It's self selecting. Any parent that cares even a little bit will realize the school is crap and get their kid out of that situation asap.
      - benchaney 9y ago
        Maybe if they are can afford to move and switch school districts. Or if they live in a school district where they can choose their school (which also correlates with income). Edit: Also, If a school is so bad that you have to move away from it to avoid being considered a bad parent, that reflects worse on the school more so than the parents.
        pmorici 9y ago
        I'd encourage you to go learn about Baltimore city schools. The failing schools being discussed in the OP are Middle and High Schools. Baltimore doesn't have school zones at the high school level. Any student that lives in Baltimore could go to any of the high schools. Some are good others are total garbage. Bottom line, you don't have to move, you do have to be proactive though. http://www.baltimorecityschools.org/Domain/9530 http://www.baltimorecityschools.org/Domain/9530
        benchaney 9y ago
        Thats a fair point, but it doesn't change the fact that it is ultimately the school's fault. Besides, it isn't like you can just choose to go wherever you want. There is a lottery process and obviously not everyone gets their first choice.
        pmorici 9y ago
        The lottery process is only for the charter schools. The rest of them have an application process similar to applying to colleges. Baltimore has more than 24 high schools. http://www.baltimorecityschools.org/about/by_the_numbers http://www.baltimorecityschools.org/about/by_the_numbers
- lhnz 9y ago
  It's not that simple. I wasn't saying you should blame the students: all schools should teach children to take charge of their education and future. This often doesn't happen. In this case, the natural response will be for the school system to put pressure onto the teachers. This will cause them to leave. The children will then be educated by supply teachers, and the school will have to recruit new teachers into a highly disruptive environment. This process already happens without the additional press. Often an excellent teacher can move to a school with more classroom disruption and find that they're unable to get through half of the materials that they prepare. This is frustrating. It's easy to understand why teachers leave schools like this. They remember the schools in which they got kids from low grades to high grades and had the peace in mind to do creative lessons. It's upsetting to be in a situation in which you can't get control of the classroom, are constantly 'ragged on' to work harder, and are held completely responsible for the results of students who make no attempt at all to take part in the lessons you prepare.
crispyambulance 9y ago
> It's okay if they need to be spoon-fed a little bit when they first join a school, but they must be weaned off this... No. You are profoundly misunderstanding the situation these kids are in. This isn't happening because these kids are getting "spoon-fed" at school or at home. Having lived in Baltimore and seen the home life of youth, I can tell you that you would not even believe the appalling, multifaceted dysfunction that is rampant in poor urban neighborhoods.
- lhnz 9y ago
  > Having lived in Baltimore and seen the home life of > youth, I can tell you that you would not even > believe the appalling, multifaceted dysfunction > that is rampant in poor urban neighborhoods. I might be incorrect about Baltimore, but I wouldn't say I have a profound misunderstanding about teaching in poor urban neighborhoods. For context, my position on this come from the UK education system. My fiancé has worked as a teacher in poor urban neighborhoods in London (Hackney, etc.) for several years so I hear a huge amount about the politics of working in a school and the relationship between teachers and children. I've also spoken to a lot of her teacher friends about this, and what I've said is more-or-less verbatim what they tell me. 'Spoon-fed' was the literal word someone used to describe teaching in an inner London school to me last night. Baltimore and the United States might be completely different, and I would love to hear your experience on this and whether you have teacher friends there? Additionally, you should read "The Achievement Gap Isn't About Teachers" [0]. As it points out "there’s just not good evidence that the gap in teacher quality between low-income and high-income schools even exists." [0] https://spottedtoad.wordpress.com/2016/10/27/no-the-achievement-gap-isnt-about-teachers/ https://spottedtoad.wordpress.com/2016/10/27/no-the-achievem...
  - crispyambulance 9y ago
    I know about what is going on because of teaching math in an adult basic education context (= literally primary-school math for adults who never graduated who are very far from high-school level). I also have known a guidance counselor in Baltimore public schools. The OP's article is very much spot-on as far as painting a picture of the worst-case-scenario of urban schools in the USA. Using the word "spoon-feeding" implies that the students are coddled to the point that it hurts their development. What is actually happening is that the students have horrific home lives characterized by neglect, bad-influences, and utter chaos. Neglect is the opposite of "spoon-feeding". Students come to school with such deep unfillable needs that just keeping the classrooms from erupting into mayhem is an achievement in itself for the instructors. ... and to respond to the article you cite: I do not believe that the quality of the teachers, alone, can be blamed for the "achievement gap". The "Achievement Gap" is a deep systemic problem with multiple causes and horrific outcomes which beget yet more horrific outcomes like some kind of hellacious positive feedback loop.

by lhnz 9y ago

benchaney 9y ago

It's ridiculous to blame the students in this case. If every single student failed, that is either a problem with the teacher, or a problem with the test.

pmorici 9y ago
Problem with the parents.
- benchaney 9y ago
  Every parent in the school? If it were a problem with a handful of students maybe, but if every student fails, there is a more systematic issue at play.
  - pmorici 9y ago
    It's self selecting. Any parent that cares even a little bit will realize the school is crap and get their kid out of that situation asap.
    - benchaney 9y ago
      Maybe if they are can afford to move and switch school districts. Or if they live in a school district where they can choose their school (which also correlates with income). Edit: Also, If a school is so bad that you have to move away from it to avoid being considered a bad parent, that reflects worse on the school more so than the parents.
      - pmorici 9y ago
        I'd encourage you to go learn about Baltimore city schools. The failing schools being discussed in the OP are Middle and High Schools. Baltimore doesn't have school zones at the high school level. Any student that lives in Baltimore could go to any of the high schools. Some are good others are total garbage. Bottom line, you don't have to move, you do have to be proactive though. http://www.baltimorecityschools.org/Domain/9530 http://www.baltimorecityschools.org/Domain/9530
        benchaney 9y ago
        Thats a fair point, but it doesn't change the fact that it is ultimately the school's fault. Besides, it isn't like you can just choose to go wherever you want. There is a lottery process and obviously not everyone gets their first choice.
        pmorici 9y ago
        The lottery process is only for the charter schools. The rest of them have an application process similar to applying to colleges. Baltimore has more than 24 high schools. http://www.baltimorecityschools.org/about/by_the_numbers http://www.baltimorecityschools.org/about/by_the_numbers
lhnz 9y ago
It's not that simple. I wasn't saying you should blame the students: all schools should teach children to take charge of their education and future. This often doesn't happen. In this case, the natural response will be for the school system to put pressure onto the teachers. This will cause them to leave. The children will then be educated by supply teachers, and the school will have to recruit new teachers into a highly disruptive environment. This process already happens without the additional press. Often an excellent teacher can move to a school with more classroom disruption and find that they're unable to get through half of the materials that they prepare. This is frustrating. It's easy to understand why teachers leave schools like this. They remember the schools in which they got kids from low grades to high grades and had the peace in mind to do creative lessons. It's upsetting to be in a situation in which you can't get control of the classroom, are constantly 'ragged on' to work harder, and are held completely responsible for the results of students who make no attempt at all to take part in the lessons you prepare.

crispyambulance 9y ago

> It's okay if they need to be spoon-fed a little bit when they first join a school, but they must be weaned off this... No. You are profoundly misunderstanding the situation these kids are in. This isn't happening because these kids are getting "spoon-fed" at school or at home. Having lived in Baltimore and seen the home life of youth, I can tell you that you would not even believe the appalling, multifaceted dysfunction that is rampant in poor urban neighborhoods.

lhnz 9y ago
> Having lived in Baltimore and seen the home life of > youth, I can tell you that you would not even > believe the appalling, multifaceted dysfunction > that is rampant in poor urban neighborhoods. I might be incorrect about Baltimore, but I wouldn't say I have a profound misunderstanding about teaching in poor urban neighborhoods. For context, my position on this come from the UK education system. My fiancé has worked as a teacher in poor urban neighborhoods in London (Hackney, etc.) for several years so I hear a huge amount about the politics of working in a school and the relationship between teachers and children. I've also spoken to a lot of her teacher friends about this, and what I've said is more-or-less verbatim what they tell me. 'Spoon-fed' was the literal word someone used to describe teaching in an inner London school to me last night. Baltimore and the United States might be completely different, and I would love to hear your experience on this and whether you have teacher friends there? Additionally, you should read "The Achievement Gap Isn't About Teachers" [0]. As it points out "there’s just not good evidence that the gap in teacher quality between low-income and high-income schools even exists." [0] https://spottedtoad.wordpress.com/2016/10/27/no-the-achievement-gap-isnt-about-teachers/ https://spottedtoad.wordpress.com/2016/10/27/no-the-achievem...
- crispyambulance 9y ago
  I know about what is going on because of teaching math in an adult basic education context (= literally primary-school math for adults who never graduated who are very far from high-school level). I also have known a guidance counselor in Baltimore public schools. The OP's article is very much spot-on as far as painting a picture of the worst-case-scenario of urban schools in the USA. Using the word "spoon-feeding" implies that the students are coddled to the point that it hurts their development. What is actually happening is that the students have horrific home lives characterized by neglect, bad-influences, and utter chaos. Neglect is the opposite of "spoon-feeding". Students come to school with such deep unfillable needs that just keeping the classrooms from erupting into mayhem is an achievement in itself for the instructors. ... and to respond to the article you cite: I do not believe that the quality of the teachers, alone, can be blamed for the "achievement gap". The "Achievement Gap" is a deep systemic problem with multiple causes and horrific outcomes which beget yet more horrific outcomes like some kind of hellacious positive feedback loop.