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I'm going to say something that might be wildly unpopular among ambitious people: If you have a full-time job, you are by far not a passive consumer. You presum

by marvin 9y ago

I'm going to say something that might be wildly unpopular among ambitious people: If you have a full-time job, you are by far not a passive consumer. You presumably contribute >40 hours every week of creatively demanding, high-quality labor to society. For most people, the premise of this question is wrong. Procrastination, when you don't obviously have a lot of available time and effort, is a symptom that most of your creative energies are already spent elsewhere and are unavailable for other high-energy pursuits. I commend the effort to organizing your remaining free time to produce something of societal value, but for most people this is an exercise that will in the long run lead to burnout. Your mind is already subconsciously telling you this. I know some people who have energy levels that allow them to sustainably burn the candle at both ends, but they are a small minority. I am quite envious of this group; they appear to have a big leg up in accomplishing great things, but there appears to be a component of either genetics or upbringing that leaves only a small portion of people with this capability. If you are not in this minority and you strongly desire to produce more creative output outside of your full-time job, there are two options: You can set small goals, e.g. spending 3-5 hours a week of dedicated time towards your pursuit, or putting everything else in your life on pause for a year or two while you go at it with all your effort. The latter course of action will likely not be sustainable, and you have to listen to your mind and body when it's had enough of it. My preferred choice would be to get a job that pays enough to sustain your lifestyle but has much smaller hours (e.g. 60% or 40% of a full-time position), if this is at all possible. Most places, sadly, it isn't an option. If you can organize this, you free up a significant portion of your creative energy, which can then be used for other ambitious goals.

k__ 9y ago
So true. I'm blogging one a week about dev stuff and it takes 2-4 hours depending on the topic. I met a few devs with family and children, and they were blown away by my commitment.
- kungtotte 9y ago
  Yeah, some weeks between work, family time, and other commitments I'd be lucky to get 2-4 hours of free time all to myself.
  - TeMPOraL 9y ago
    That sounds like hell, and I fear I'm heading there pretty quick myself...
- klibertp 9y ago
  > I'm blogging one a week about dev stuff and it takes 2-4 hours depending on the topic. I'm so jealous! :) I publish a new post once every couple of months. Some posts take really long to prepare, like 40 hours (and more) of work long. The biggest problem is that it doesn't really show - for that much time my posts should be each as long as "Steve Yegge's Best Of" anthology. I'm not even sure it's worth it as a learning experience, but at least it's still fun. I'm being told that my writing quality improves, too, so it's not that bad overall. It's still irritating that every time I try to write a post in a short amount of time it somehow spirals out of control and becomes 3 full days of work...
  - falcolas 9y ago
    > I try to write a post in a short amount of time it somehow spirals out of control and becomes 3 full days of work... Writing, especially when you want it to be good writing backed by solid evidence (or a solid plot), is not an easy thing. I liken it to programming: the language is rather poorly specified in comparison, but the planning and researched required to do it properly is at least as arduous.
  - CydeWeys 9y ago
    Steve Yegge gets away with it because he's Steve Yegge. There's definitely lots of people that write blog posts that are too long, and if you're just starting and don't have name recognition yet, I'd say it's better to aim for a reasonable length that most people will at least get through.
  - k__ 9y ago
    Well, sometimes I try to prepare stuff workdays. But I mostly write about stuff that comes to mind on the day of blogging. If it's Sunday and you need to write your post, you aren't picky with topics, haha
  - wpietri 9y ago
    Oh! Please don't feel bad about that. Writing short is harder than writing long. But it's worth it because it respects the time of the reader. As an analogy, think of those radio talk show personalities that can go on for hours every day just running their mouths. It's impressive, but what they're doing is glib entertainment, a way for people to fill the hours while driving. These days the world is filled with quickly-made, quickly written stuff. Nothing wrong with that, really. But I love it when I come across people who are doing something different.
bbcbasic 9y ago
I agree. That's why at the start of the year my side project was learning advanced Haskell topics. And now I've said f'it I'm not enjoying that and I'm setting up a Shopify store instead. Polar opposite side project! No coding aka brain burning required and I get to create something super quick with minimal brain power and potentially profit which if I do could buy me more time to spend in it.
monk_e_boy 9y ago
I wrote an released some open source software in my spare time. I just stopped watching 2 hours of TV a night and coded then. I would got to the pub 2 hours later than my mates, I would miss popular TV shows (X-factor or whatever) but it was a lot of fun and I enjoyed it. But I do think there are people who just feel the need to make things, they just get on and do it. People who question how makers find the time.... hm, it's like I question how people have the time to watch endless Netflix shows. Where do you fit that time in? Oh, you aren't making a hydrofoil in your back room? OK, that's currently what's taking up a lot of my spare time. I think humans were designed to enjoy making things. As soon as you start using your hands and brain and try to make something that no one else has -- enjoyment happens. The other day I had the option of buying some rope on eBay and getting free splicing. Wow. Challenge accepted! I purchased the more expensive non-spliced rope and spent a week learning all about splicing. It's amazing how many new places around my house a bit of spliced rope came in handy. Don't get me started on how many hours of YouTube videos I watched on rope making. I spent many a happy hour at a friends garden making string and rope out of nettles. He thought I was a bit nutty, but he used the string to tie up his beans. His kid used some of it to make a den. I'm getting distracted. Everyone enjoys making (kids love lego) you just have to accept that you are re-inventing the wheel and not to worry about it. You won't get famous. You'll just enjoy life more.
- marvin 9y ago
  There is definitely something here; some pursuits feel like they come naturally (i.e. feel like they replenish rather than cost energy) while others are more of a chore that require a deliberate application of energy to perform. Perhaps some creative people have certain interests that are just so engaging they could spend most of their waking hours doing them, but that these activities are very specific. My feeling has always been that the time component isn't the deciding factor. Of course you spend a significant number of hours every week doing non-work-related activities, but although the number of hours spent is identical, watching an enjoyable Netflix show isn't nearly as demanding as building a hydrofoil in your garage. At least that's the case for most people; maybe you are one of the few for whom building boats is a great passion and naturally spend your effort doing that. I've always found that there are only a few weeks a year that I'll naturally be able to spend doing demanding creative labor outside of work. And at those times it'll be pretty specific, e.g. some programming project that for some reason seems unusually interesting. Apart from that, I can certainly turn off my other natural energy-replenishing interests for a while (reading, computer games, movies, conversations with friends, biking/working out), but it is not sustainable and will lead to burnout and depression if I ignore my body's signals and don't stop in time. Eventually I've found that it's healthier to just acknowledge and be proud of my significant contributions in my full time-job, and consider this a human limitation. I don't think it's healthy or constructive to feel guilty about not being as energetic and capable as (a small number of famous) other people.
watwut 9y ago
My experience worth people who work a lot in their spare time is that their productivity at work drops. Basically, former in the pub socialization is replaced by in the office socialization. Their tv watching is replaced by more browsing at work. Effectively they do 60% position, but are able to switch to full time productivity when needed. There are positions where it is ok (slow company) and there are situations where you have to do it (when you need to learn something new). So basically, my advice would be to find company that is not much demanding and then produce whatever you envoy producing.
- slothtrop 9y ago
  I've seen the very same thing. I wondered why one particular guy I know managed to be relatively productive at his leisure with personal projects when development was also his FT job. He let it slip, effectively, that he was not so productive at work and even neglected it in favor of personal projects. This must be common practice in creating that mythos of the tireless programmer with a strong involvement in open-source.
  - harlanji 9y ago
    Indeed, although it takes two to tango. Impossible to know the relationship between said person and their management. I take my inklings to start new things while employed as an indicator that I need to talk to my manager. Help doing more work should be a good request, and 'in a month' or so is an acceptable answer. If they don't help me out I start feeling restless and perhaps start that project on the weekend. If they don't respond to my progress then I start feeling unappreciated/underutilized, and express this. If it still goes nowhere, time to move on. Not moving on at this point is where the problems start, as you go into a reactionary mode and "aren't yourself" anymore.
ahmedk92 9y ago
+1 I notice a hive-mind of looking-down on "ordinary work" even if it's not really challenging, and is actually isn't less purposeful than open source projects that get to the HN front-page. 'Coolness' is an unmeasured and a dangerous motivation.
- klibertp 9y ago
  > 'Coolness' is an unmeasured and a dangerous motivation. As is curiosity, but we have little problems with people motivated by it in tech?
  - sametmax 9y ago
    Oh no, we have big problems with coolness in tech.
    - Pr3fix 9y ago
      He was comparing coolness, an "unmeasured and a dangerous motivation", to curiosity, which is similarly unmeasured and dangerous. ie, both are unreliable motivators and yet the industry idolizes both.
- vasilipupkin 9y ago
  the biggest problem with ordinary work is the rote schedules most such work entails. Just having to be in the same building for many years from X am to Y pm Monday through Friday, except for M weeks vacation, is itself pretty depressing to many people
- eeZah7Ux 9y ago
  Writing just another automation tool, application, website is hardly helping the planet. Making some billionaire company owner more wealthy even less. Let's be honest: less than 10% of software jobs are producing something meaningful. Meaningful | interesting | paid. Pick one. Pick two if you are both very talented and lucky. Pick three if you are Torvalds.
  - 9y ago
doublelife 9y ago
Most weeks I expend about 40 hours (mostly remote) working as a software developer in order to pay the bills. At the same time I'm spending between 10 and 40 hours working on my own startup as I don't want to be an employee forever. I also have a young family and I really do my best to fulfil my obligations as a parent, as is fair and right. A day for me does not stop from the moment I wake up (7am) to the moment I get into bed (11pm) and weekends are no different. Sometimes I feel like the entire world is crushing in around me, sometimes I wonder if it's all too much, but then I get back to it and I keep moving forward. I've been doing this for about two years now. There are definite ups and downs, where my energy and ability to produce (code, or business related output) is greater, and lesser. Sometimes I feel really shitty for not doing more than a few hours side work in a week. Sometimes, when I have taken a weekend off, I have felt guilt. It's tough. You find you are doing essentially 2 full time jobs, 7 days a week, almost 52 weeks a year, but I was raised to work and to work hard, while I am young, while I can. I think if you want to do something like this, you have to have a solid reason. If you have a family, even more so, you have to make sure it's fair to them too. I wish I knew why I feel the urge to work 24/7, why I feel guilt if I don't work, and whether this is actually a problem? Alas, it's time for me to get back to it.
- eeZah7Ux 9y ago
  > I feel guilt if I don't work ... this is actually a problem Yes it is. Volunteering out of enthusiasm != volunteering out of guilt/shame.
- chauey 9y ago
  Whoa, I kinda feel the same way, always feeling I gotta be working something. Always balancing work and life. Lugging around my laptop everywhere in case I can do something productive on it. I quit my job recently, trying to focus on my side project, but also been busy getting engaged and married soon. Always feeling I don't have enough time or not focusing or getting enough done. GLHF!
nurettin 9y ago
Can you cite any credible source other than subjective reasoning for creativity being a limited resource that we spend during a dayjob and have almost none left to build something at home?
- coldtea 9y ago
  Because the fact that daily work exhausts people and drains their energy is some kind of complex nuanced issue that requires dedicated research to verify? Obviously it depends on how demanding/time consuming the daily job is, but that's a standard observation with millennia of empirical evidence. I swear, it's like people can't even tie their shoes anymore unless there's a long-term study (and preferably, meta studies) to prove them that tying one's shoelaces is good.
  - nurettin 9y ago
    It isn't a "complex nuanced issue", talking about the depletion of some non-existent entity (creative energies? srsly?) is at best a failure of self-expression and at worst spiritual nonsense. I guess people get defensive because of this very frustration of being wrong and unable to correct themselves at the same time.
- CydeWeys 9y ago
  It's not creativity, it's mental energy. Most people don't have the capacity to even work 40 mentally demanding hours per week, let alone double that. Just look around at your colleagues and ask how many are really working hard eight hours every day for five days straight. I know I'm not. My best output comes in shorter stretches of flow a maximum of a few hours long, and often not even every day.
bitL 9y ago
Job is rarely utilizing all your capabilities, in fact rather forces you to spend too much time on things you hate and would do differently or even not do if you weren't forced by your employers. Your advice is for people that are happy to be defined by their job, not by their accomplishments and potential fulfillment. The rest of us with some ambitions and drive have to do/study things on our own with the hope we can go ballistic on those ideas and make some part of our world better.
cocktailpeanuts 9y ago
The guy wants advice on "how", not some words to make him feel better about not doing stuff, so let's give him that. > for most people this is an exercise that will in the long run lead to burnout. Your mind is already subconsciously telling you this. I want to point out that this is one of the reasons why people never start things. Let me share my experience as someone who has started, AND burned out, multiple times. Hopefully this helps people change their beliefs. 1. Yes you are right that you will burn out if you push yourself too hard, but this only happens if the result is not satisfying enough compared to the effort you pour in. From my multiple experiences where some I succeeded and some failed, I only burned out enough to give up when things weren't going well despite the effort I put in. I guarantee you you WILL NOT burn out if your thing goes well. 2. Another mistake people make is thinking that burning out is like dying, and you can't recover. This is why people want to "save it for the best" and don't commit 100%, because they "want to be able to commit 100% only when they truly really come across the perfect opportunity". But the thing is, these people NEVER end up doing anything because of the law of inertia. "The perfect opportunity" is an elusive thing, and the more you wait, the higher the bar goes up, which means you will never meet that perfect moment. 3. Burning out is a phase, not the end. I've burned out multiple times, and stopped working for a couple of months to several months (and did nothing but entertain myself). But eventually you recover and can't wait to start a new thing. This never happens to people who wait for the perfect moment because they don't even know what it feels like. They think there's only one chance. 4. Don't try to bend the spoon. It's impossible. Instead, only realize the truth. There is no spoon. Then you will see that it is not the spoon that bends, it is yourself.
- UnpossibleJim 9y ago
  I will counter with one (older person's, I guess) observation of a bunch of my friends who are now in their early to mid fourties and late thirties. The one's who focus on making a career and accomplishments, be they for social value or greater equality for all or the justice in society being more balanced, etc. etc...... anyway, they end up at my age, when naturally, the larger group starts to drift apart a bit, looking around alone with their accomplishments being their only companion. That's great if you are only driven by business success/societal accolades. Super awesome and congratulations. You've figured out what makes you happy and I commend you. That isn't most people. Take some of that spare time and energy and go out, meet some people and have some fun. Blow off some steam. Have some sex. Meet four or five significant others. Pair them down to the point where you're both (or whatever) are happy. Build a life together. And stop rushing around. I know a bunch (most) of friends who are on their third or fourth spouse because they were in such a hurry to get things done, they never took the time to figure out who their significant other was, who their friends were or why they liked them or who, in fact, they really were. Don't fill the hole inside of yourself with hollow accolades and useless trophies. Take some time to figure out who you are and what is really going to make you happy. Experiment with different things. Fail. Try something else... You know. Live your life. Have fun. Now. That being said. I doubt this will be an overly popular sentiment. But when their friends start dying, they'll see them all start saying the same sorts of things, and none of them are, "I wish I'd spent more time working." P.S. If you want to figure some stuff out and do some good, go volunteer at an eldercare facility. That can be you in 50 years (I'm guessing at ages here, forgive me). Sitting in a home, alone for the most part, wishing people would visit. Building a happy life with strong relationships is important to the society at large. Trust me. Society without happy people without friends is fucking terrifying.
Bakary 9y ago
On what basis can we make the assumption that full-time jobs do in fact contribute to society? In this current world it's not an easy question to answer.
- TeMPOraL 9y ago
  My approach is: many, but not all do; use your own judgement. If you can land a job that you believe is doing a service for the society, all the better for you. If you can't, it's fair to seek alternatives.
- ams6110 9y ago
  If nothing else, they contribute to your paying for your own life, rather than the rest of society having to support you.
  - user15672 9y ago
    No to mention the increased input into the local economy. That allows others who may be doing something more directly for society to continue doing so.
jv0010 9y ago
Wow this is really good advice thanks :)
Xcelerate 9y ago
> I know some people who have energy levels that allow them to sustainably burn the candle at both ends, but they are a small minority. I am quite envious of this group; they appear to have a big leg up in accomplishing great things, but there appears to be a component of either genetics or upbringing that leaves only a small portion of people with this capability. Why isn't there more research on this? A huge number of people would like to be this way—consistently delivering Musk-ian type efforts week after week. But how do you do it? The "feel good" self-help articles about waking up early and other nonsense are clearly wrong, otherwise everyone would be super productive by now (I think these articles mistake correlation for causation). But I'm not convinced it is entirely genetic—I know people who have gone from extremely lazy to extremely hard working. What caused the change? Can it be replicated? I'd love to be able to push myself for 16 hours a day, every day, and while I keep finding little techniques that help me achieve more productivity over time, I wonder if there exists some technique that provides a huge boost in productivity. I just don't know what it is. If I had to guess, I would think that increasing hours of productivity is a skill like any other, and it requires ramping up slowly over time. If you've never run before and go out and run 20 miles one day, you'll burn out and injury yourself. But if you add a few miles every week, eventually 100 mile weeks become normal and you don't really become tired from them (speaking as a former runner). I wouldn't be surprised if productivity works the same way.
- theparanoid 9y ago
  "But how do you do it?" Drugs is a consistent method. I did it for years.
  - EdgarVerona 9y ago
    Aye - energy drinks were mine. I ended up almost ruining my body by the time I was 30, so that I could have the energy to pursue all of these side projects that I felt like I "had to" work on. I think side projects are good, particularly if you're passionate about said project. But don't ruin yourself for the sake of them! You can't experience the benefits of your labor if you're dead. I hope that younger people can learn from my example. When I was young, I felt invincible: I wasn't seeing how the things I was consuming to keep going were harming me in real, material, and permanent ways. I'm not saying don't work on side projects, but if you have to abuse a substance (even legal ones) to burn that candle, please think about your future and give yourself a more sustainable timeline.
jorblumesea 9y ago
I really appreciate this comment, mostly because I feel an immense amount of pressure to use my remaining time to do something "amazing" or keep up with the insane rate of frontend changes. I feel the core issue is that as developers/engineers, we spend a lot of time doing things that companies want, which can be at odds with skill growth, professional development or other things that are actually really important to making ourselves better. If I want to learn something new or improve myself, it's done on my time, not the company's. I guess this does make some sense, because they hired me to build things, not to study, although allowing me to spend some free time doing interesting things is known to provide large dividends. I think the solution to this is the 20% time rule, but Google only really does this.
- kmicklas 9y ago
  > I think the solution to this is the 20% time rule, but Google only really does this. Google doesn't really do this either anymore.
  - the_common_man 9y ago
    Why was it discontinued? Seems like a win-win to Google and Employees. I thought gmail came out of this 20% time...
    - taneq 9y ago
      Just judging from comments here, it sounds like officially it's still running but unofficially that 20% time had better not detract any actual work hours from any of your official work. So really it's "work 20% overtime on whatever you want, and the company will own it" which doesn't sound very motivating to me.
- nolanpro 9y ago
  Some smaller companies and startup still do this. They need to in order to attract good talent. Toss that in with the fact that they sometimes pay better (for the same reason) and a fairly decent balance can be had.
deleted 9y ago
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Arete3141 9y ago
I also second the joys of a part-time job. One of the most productive periods in my working life was when I had a job that was 30 hours a week. I worked 6 hours a day -- so that forced me to get out of bed, shower, and become fully human -- and then in the evenings I had enough time and energy to make real progress on my artistic goals. I even found that the pay cut wasn't a 25% pay cut, but more like a 10% pay cut, because with the extra time I had, I did more shopping and meal planning, and spent less money overall on conveniences. I could afford to do things the "inconvenient" way. I wish more companies in tech considered offering part time jobs. I know there would be a lot of people interested in those jobs, and they would be super loyal employees because they would be psyched to have the chance to have a real life.
- olejorgenb 9y ago
  Yeah, I asked for a reduced position without luck. (a development/programming position)
EdgarVerona 9y ago
I think this is important. Someone else mentioned that this isn't helpful for what he asked, but I think it is - I think it's important that we understand that working is not passive. If you're working 40 (or in some of our cases, 50, 60, 70) hours a week, you are devoting a significant portion of your life to creation. I agree with the points others made about how to avoid burnout, find things you're passionate about etc... but I hope the question asker understands that what they're doing does have value. The value may be labor - which, indeed, is undervalued in society compared to actually being the controller/owner of the product on which work is being performed - but it is creating value just the same. Now, if you reach a point where you want all of that value to be creating to be yours and not mostly someone else's, or if you find you have energy to spare to start working on side projects, then you may be ready to move from putting labor into other people's products to putting labor into your own. But there's no shame in working hard and earning a paycheck, and devoting the other time in your life to doing whatever it is that makes you happy. (and if what makes you happy ends up being creating a side project that turns into something where you control your own product, that's great!)
jakewins 9y ago
For anyone interested, as someone that currently works 75%: At my last career change, I applied for a full time position, but asked if the employer would consider hiring me at 75%, with a matching reduction in salary. I work full time days, but am not paid to work Fridays plus a full week each quarter. Pros: the time off itself has been brilliant; I spend that extra time learning computer vision programming in Go, and took a part time class to become a certified master gardener (massively recommended, best $150 I ever spent(1)); it also leaves time for recreational fishing, hiking and hunting. Cons: It's a strain on my career, it's not just that I work less, but the fact that I'm gone as much as I am has somewhat limited which tasks I'm able to take on properly; it's also, at least for myself, psychologically problematic since I lead a team and the rest of the team is full time. All-in-all, I think the career drawback is by far outweighed by both the quality of life and skills I've gained; I'm not sure if it's sustainable as the company grows from a small startup to a more regular company. For now, I'm very much enjoying working part time. (1) http://mg.missouri.edu/ http://mg.missouri.edu/
- erikb 9y ago
  I did that as well for some time. Consider not taking a whole day off, but but taking off two hours here and two hours there. This way you seem much more available but may actually be even more flexible in how to spend your free time. Of course that requires a lot more flexibility on your part. But the payout in time and career success is worth it.
- richdougherty 9y ago
  I did this too for about 5 years, except I took 2 weeks off each quarter. I learned Scala, programming language theory, did papers on finance and logic, etc. The job I have now is based on some of the open source work I did during that period. When I took time off to work on interesting stuff I found I was more practical and sensible in my main job. When I designed solutions I was very business focused. I didn't need to use the latest tech or do novel work, since I could do that in my own time. The day off each week kept me fresh and interested without needing to get that from my main job.
ams6110 9y ago
It's interesting -- I have sort of been coming to the same conclusion myself. I work full-time and have a family. I have ideas for side projects and learning new stuff but on any given day, after work and activities with kids I usually don't feel like spending the hour or two of spare time I might have on something that takes a lot of mental engagement. Sometimes on weekends, if there isn't a lot else going on, I'll spend a few hours on a Sunday afternoon on that sort of thing, but beyond that it generally doesn't happen. Of course I then feel bad that I'm not getting things done that I want to do, but have lately been more inclined to think that I'm already at capacity and it just isn't going to happen unless I trade off something else. So now I'm evaluating whether I would really get more reward out of pursuing these extra activities at the expense of something else, or if I should stop even thinking about it and just enjoy what is already happening in my life.
samirillian 9y ago
Uggh, no. What's that saying about how eloquent one can be about a thing if one's salary depends on it?
alexcnwy 9y ago
I think there's something of a catch-22 here where it's much easier to get a low-hours job when you've already put yourself out there and have something like a blog that you can point to. One thing I'd suggest is speaking to your employer and saying you'd like to take some time off to travel (preferably if you can spin this as needing to see family or something that would make them look like a dick for saying no to) but that you'd like to continue working while you're doing so and can commit to keeping all your current tasks going and bill say 40 hours per month. I think many employers are paying full time salaries but only really need like 40-80 hours of work per month but they can't just pay for those hours so they pay a full time salary and the remaining time gets filled. Suggesting they can get 40 good, accountable hours per month can be a win win. Worked for me at least.
heyoni 9y ago
I would add that if you can find some overlap between your daily job and any personal goals you've set, you could potentially be using your good creative energy for two things rather than one.

by marvin 9y ago

k__ 9y ago

So true. I'm blogging one a week about dev stuff and it takes 2-4 hours depending on the topic. I met a few devs with family and children, and they were blown away by my commitment.

kungtotte 9y ago
Yeah, some weeks between work, family time, and other commitments I'd be lucky to get 2-4 hours of free time all to myself.
- TeMPOraL 9y ago
  That sounds like hell, and I fear I'm heading there pretty quick myself...
klibertp 9y ago
> I'm blogging one a week about dev stuff and it takes 2-4 hours depending on the topic. I'm so jealous! :) I publish a new post once every couple of months. Some posts take really long to prepare, like 40 hours (and more) of work long. The biggest problem is that it doesn't really show - for that much time my posts should be each as long as "Steve Yegge's Best Of" anthology. I'm not even sure it's worth it as a learning experience, but at least it's still fun. I'm being told that my writing quality improves, too, so it's not that bad overall. It's still irritating that every time I try to write a post in a short amount of time it somehow spirals out of control and becomes 3 full days of work...
- falcolas 9y ago
  > I try to write a post in a short amount of time it somehow spirals out of control and becomes 3 full days of work... Writing, especially when you want it to be good writing backed by solid evidence (or a solid plot), is not an easy thing. I liken it to programming: the language is rather poorly specified in comparison, but the planning and researched required to do it properly is at least as arduous.
- CydeWeys 9y ago
  Steve Yegge gets away with it because he's Steve Yegge. There's definitely lots of people that write blog posts that are too long, and if you're just starting and don't have name recognition yet, I'd say it's better to aim for a reasonable length that most people will at least get through.
- k__ 9y ago
  Well, sometimes I try to prepare stuff workdays. But I mostly write about stuff that comes to mind on the day of blogging. If it's Sunday and you need to write your post, you aren't picky with topics, haha
- wpietri 9y ago
  Oh! Please don't feel bad about that. Writing short is harder than writing long. But it's worth it because it respects the time of the reader. As an analogy, think of those radio talk show personalities that can go on for hours every day just running their mouths. It's impressive, but what they're doing is glib entertainment, a way for people to fill the hours while driving. These days the world is filled with quickly-made, quickly written stuff. Nothing wrong with that, really. But I love it when I come across people who are doing something different.

bbcbasic 9y ago

I agree. That's why at the start of the year my side project was learning advanced Haskell topics. And now I've said f'it I'm not enjoying that and I'm setting up a Shopify store instead. Polar opposite side project! No coding aka brain burning required and I get to create something super quick with minimal brain power and potentially profit which if I do could buy me more time to spend in it.

monk_e_boy 9y ago

I wrote an released some open source software in my spare time. I just stopped watching 2 hours of TV a night and coded then. I would got to the pub 2 hours later than my mates, I would miss popular TV shows (X-factor or whatever) but it was a lot of fun and I enjoyed it. But I do think there are people who just feel the need to make things, they just get on and do it. People who question how makers find the time.... hm, it's like I question how people have the time to watch endless Netflix shows. Where do you fit that time in? Oh, you aren't making a hydrofoil in your back room? OK, that's currently what's taking up a lot of my spare time. I think humans were designed to enjoy making things. As soon as you start using your hands and brain and try to make something that no one else has -- enjoyment happens. The other day I had the option of buying some rope on eBay and getting free splicing. Wow. Challenge accepted! I purchased the more expensive non-spliced rope and spent a week learning all about splicing. It's amazing how many new places around my house a bit of spliced rope came in handy. Don't get me started on how many hours of YouTube videos I watched on rope making. I spent many a happy hour at a friends garden making string and rope out of nettles. He thought I was a bit nutty, but he used the string to tie up his beans. His kid used some of it to make a den. I'm getting distracted. Everyone enjoys making (kids love lego) you just have to accept that you are re-inventing the wheel and not to worry about it. You won't get famous. You'll just enjoy life more.

marvin 9y ago
There is definitely something here; some pursuits feel like they come naturally (i.e. feel like they replenish rather than cost energy) while others are more of a chore that require a deliberate application of energy to perform. Perhaps some creative people have certain interests that are just so engaging they could spend most of their waking hours doing them, but that these activities are very specific. My feeling has always been that the time component isn't the deciding factor. Of course you spend a significant number of hours every week doing non-work-related activities, but although the number of hours spent is identical, watching an enjoyable Netflix show isn't nearly as demanding as building a hydrofoil in your garage. At least that's the case for most people; maybe you are one of the few for whom building boats is a great passion and naturally spend your effort doing that. I've always found that there are only a few weeks a year that I'll naturally be able to spend doing demanding creative labor outside of work. And at those times it'll be pretty specific, e.g. some programming project that for some reason seems unusually interesting. Apart from that, I can certainly turn off my other natural energy-replenishing interests for a while (reading, computer games, movies, conversations with friends, biking/working out), but it is not sustainable and will lead to burnout and depression if I ignore my body's signals and don't stop in time. Eventually I've found that it's healthier to just acknowledge and be proud of my significant contributions in my full time-job, and consider this a human limitation. I don't think it's healthy or constructive to feel guilty about not being as energetic and capable as (a small number of famous) other people.

watwut 9y ago

My experience worth people who work a lot in their spare time is that their productivity at work drops. Basically, former in the pub socialization is replaced by in the office socialization. Their tv watching is replaced by more browsing at work. Effectively they do 60% position, but are able to switch to full time productivity when needed. There are positions where it is ok (slow company) and there are situations where you have to do it (when you need to learn something new). So basically, my advice would be to find company that is not much demanding and then produce whatever you envoy producing.

slothtrop 9y ago
I've seen the very same thing. I wondered why one particular guy I know managed to be relatively productive at his leisure with personal projects when development was also his FT job. He let it slip, effectively, that he was not so productive at work and even neglected it in favor of personal projects. This must be common practice in creating that mythos of the tireless programmer with a strong involvement in open-source.
- harlanji 9y ago
  Indeed, although it takes two to tango. Impossible to know the relationship between said person and their management. I take my inklings to start new things while employed as an indicator that I need to talk to my manager. Help doing more work should be a good request, and 'in a month' or so is an acceptable answer. If they don't help me out I start feeling restless and perhaps start that project on the weekend. If they don't respond to my progress then I start feeling unappreciated/underutilized, and express this. If it still goes nowhere, time to move on. Not moving on at this point is where the problems start, as you go into a reactionary mode and "aren't yourself" anymore.

ahmedk92 9y ago

+1 I notice a hive-mind of looking-down on "ordinary work" even if it's not really challenging, and is actually isn't less purposeful than open source projects that get to the HN front-page. 'Coolness' is an unmeasured and a dangerous motivation.

klibertp 9y ago
> 'Coolness' is an unmeasured and a dangerous motivation. As is curiosity, but we have little problems with people motivated by it in tech?
- sametmax 9y ago
  Oh no, we have big problems with coolness in tech.
  - Pr3fix 9y ago
    He was comparing coolness, an "unmeasured and a dangerous motivation", to curiosity, which is similarly unmeasured and dangerous. ie, both are unreliable motivators and yet the industry idolizes both.
vasilipupkin 9y ago
the biggest problem with ordinary work is the rote schedules most such work entails. Just having to be in the same building for many years from X am to Y pm Monday through Friday, except for M weeks vacation, is itself pretty depressing to many people
eeZah7Ux 9y ago
Writing just another automation tool, application, website is hardly helping the planet. Making some billionaire company owner more wealthy even less. Let's be honest: less than 10% of software jobs are producing something meaningful. Meaningful | interesting | paid. Pick one. Pick two if you are both very talented and lucky. Pick three if you are Torvalds.
- 9y ago

doublelife 9y ago

Most weeks I expend about 40 hours (mostly remote) working as a software developer in order to pay the bills. At the same time I'm spending between 10 and 40 hours working on my own startup as I don't want to be an employee forever. I also have a young family and I really do my best to fulfil my obligations as a parent, as is fair and right. A day for me does not stop from the moment I wake up (7am) to the moment I get into bed (11pm) and weekends are no different. Sometimes I feel like the entire world is crushing in around me, sometimes I wonder if it's all too much, but then I get back to it and I keep moving forward. I've been doing this for about two years now. There are definite ups and downs, where my energy and ability to produce (code, or business related output) is greater, and lesser. Sometimes I feel really shitty for not doing more than a few hours side work in a week. Sometimes, when I have taken a weekend off, I have felt guilt. It's tough. You find you are doing essentially 2 full time jobs, 7 days a week, almost 52 weeks a year, but I was raised to work and to work hard, while I am young, while I can. I think if you want to do something like this, you have to have a solid reason. If you have a family, even more so, you have to make sure it's fair to them too. I wish I knew why I feel the urge to work 24/7, why I feel guilt if I don't work, and whether this is actually a problem? Alas, it's time for me to get back to it.

eeZah7Ux 9y ago
> I feel guilt if I don't work ... this is actually a problem Yes it is. Volunteering out of enthusiasm != volunteering out of guilt/shame.
chauey 9y ago
Whoa, I kinda feel the same way, always feeling I gotta be working something. Always balancing work and life. Lugging around my laptop everywhere in case I can do something productive on it. I quit my job recently, trying to focus on my side project, but also been busy getting engaged and married soon. Always feeling I don't have enough time or not focusing or getting enough done. GLHF!

nurettin 9y ago

Can you cite any credible source other than subjective reasoning for creativity being a limited resource that we spend during a dayjob and have almost none left to build something at home?

coldtea 9y ago
Because the fact that daily work exhausts people and drains their energy is some kind of complex nuanced issue that requires dedicated research to verify? Obviously it depends on how demanding/time consuming the daily job is, but that's a standard observation with millennia of empirical evidence. I swear, it's like people can't even tie their shoes anymore unless there's a long-term study (and preferably, meta studies) to prove them that tying one's shoelaces is good.
- nurettin 9y ago
  It isn't a "complex nuanced issue", talking about the depletion of some non-existent entity (creative energies? srsly?) is at best a failure of self-expression and at worst spiritual nonsense. I guess people get defensive because of this very frustration of being wrong and unable to correct themselves at the same time.
CydeWeys 9y ago
It's not creativity, it's mental energy. Most people don't have the capacity to even work 40 mentally demanding hours per week, let alone double that. Just look around at your colleagues and ask how many are really working hard eight hours every day for five days straight. I know I'm not. My best output comes in shorter stretches of flow a maximum of a few hours long, and often not even every day.

bitL 9y ago

Job is rarely utilizing all your capabilities, in fact rather forces you to spend too much time on things you hate and would do differently or even not do if you weren't forced by your employers. Your advice is for people that are happy to be defined by their job, not by their accomplishments and potential fulfillment. The rest of us with some ambitions and drive have to do/study things on our own with the hope we can go ballistic on those ideas and make some part of our world better.

cocktailpeanuts 9y ago

The guy wants advice on "how", not some words to make him feel better about not doing stuff, so let's give him that. > for most people this is an exercise that will in the long run lead to burnout. Your mind is already subconsciously telling you this. I want to point out that this is one of the reasons why people never start things. Let me share my experience as someone who has started, AND burned out, multiple times. Hopefully this helps people change their beliefs. 1. Yes you are right that you will burn out if you push yourself too hard, but this only happens if the result is not satisfying enough compared to the effort you pour in. From my multiple experiences where some I succeeded and some failed, I only burned out enough to give up when things weren't going well despite the effort I put in. I guarantee you you WILL NOT burn out if your thing goes well. 2. Another mistake people make is thinking that burning out is like dying, and you can't recover. This is why people want to "save it for the best" and don't commit 100%, because they "want to be able to commit 100% only when they truly really come across the perfect opportunity". But the thing is, these people NEVER end up doing anything because of the law of inertia. "The perfect opportunity" is an elusive thing, and the more you wait, the higher the bar goes up, which means you will never meet that perfect moment. 3. Burning out is a phase, not the end. I've burned out multiple times, and stopped working for a couple of months to several months (and did nothing but entertain myself). But eventually you recover and can't wait to start a new thing. This never happens to people who wait for the perfect moment because they don't even know what it feels like. They think there's only one chance. 4. Don't try to bend the spoon. It's impossible. Instead, only realize the truth. There is no spoon. Then you will see that it is not the spoon that bends, it is yourself.

UnpossibleJim 9y ago
I will counter with one (older person's, I guess) observation of a bunch of my friends who are now in their early to mid fourties and late thirties. The one's who focus on making a career and accomplishments, be they for social value or greater equality for all or the justice in society being more balanced, etc. etc...... anyway, they end up at my age, when naturally, the larger group starts to drift apart a bit, looking around alone with their accomplishments being their only companion. That's great if you are only driven by business success/societal accolades. Super awesome and congratulations. You've figured out what makes you happy and I commend you. That isn't most people. Take some of that spare time and energy and go out, meet some people and have some fun. Blow off some steam. Have some sex. Meet four or five significant others. Pair them down to the point where you're both (or whatever) are happy. Build a life together. And stop rushing around. I know a bunch (most) of friends who are on their third or fourth spouse because they were in such a hurry to get things done, they never took the time to figure out who their significant other was, who their friends were or why they liked them or who, in fact, they really were. Don't fill the hole inside of yourself with hollow accolades and useless trophies. Take some time to figure out who you are and what is really going to make you happy. Experiment with different things. Fail. Try something else... You know. Live your life. Have fun. Now. That being said. I doubt this will be an overly popular sentiment. But when their friends start dying, they'll see them all start saying the same sorts of things, and none of them are, "I wish I'd spent more time working." P.S. If you want to figure some stuff out and do some good, go volunteer at an eldercare facility. That can be you in 50 years (I'm guessing at ages here, forgive me). Sitting in a home, alone for the most part, wishing people would visit. Building a happy life with strong relationships is important to the society at large. Trust me. Society without happy people without friends is fucking terrifying.

Bakary 9y ago

On what basis can we make the assumption that full-time jobs do in fact contribute to society? In this current world it's not an easy question to answer.

TeMPOraL 9y ago
My approach is: many, but not all do; use your own judgement. If you can land a job that you believe is doing a service for the society, all the better for you. If you can't, it's fair to seek alternatives.
ams6110 9y ago
If nothing else, they contribute to your paying for your own life, rather than the rest of society having to support you.
- user15672 9y ago
  No to mention the increased input into the local economy. That allows others who may be doing something more directly for society to continue doing so.

jv0010 9y ago

Wow this is really good advice thanks :)

Xcelerate 9y ago

> I know some people who have energy levels that allow them to sustainably burn the candle at both ends, but they are a small minority. I am quite envious of this group; they appear to have a big leg up in accomplishing great things, but there appears to be a component of either genetics or upbringing that leaves only a small portion of people with this capability. Why isn't there more research on this? A huge number of people would like to be this way—consistently delivering Musk-ian type efforts week after week. But how do you do it? The "feel good" self-help articles about waking up early and other nonsense are clearly wrong, otherwise everyone would be super productive by now (I think these articles mistake correlation for causation). But I'm not convinced it is entirely genetic—I know people who have gone from extremely lazy to extremely hard working. What caused the change? Can it be replicated? I'd love to be able to push myself for 16 hours a day, every day, and while I keep finding little techniques that help me achieve more productivity over time, I wonder if there exists some technique that provides a huge boost in productivity. I just don't know what it is. If I had to guess, I would think that increasing hours of productivity is a skill like any other, and it requires ramping up slowly over time. If you've never run before and go out and run 20 miles one day, you'll burn out and injury yourself. But if you add a few miles every week, eventually 100 mile weeks become normal and you don't really become tired from them (speaking as a former runner). I wouldn't be surprised if productivity works the same way.

theparanoid 9y ago
"But how do you do it?" Drugs is a consistent method. I did it for years.
- EdgarVerona 9y ago
  Aye - energy drinks were mine. I ended up almost ruining my body by the time I was 30, so that I could have the energy to pursue all of these side projects that I felt like I "had to" work on. I think side projects are good, particularly if you're passionate about said project. But don't ruin yourself for the sake of them! You can't experience the benefits of your labor if you're dead. I hope that younger people can learn from my example. When I was young, I felt invincible: I wasn't seeing how the things I was consuming to keep going were harming me in real, material, and permanent ways. I'm not saying don't work on side projects, but if you have to abuse a substance (even legal ones) to burn that candle, please think about your future and give yourself a more sustainable timeline.

jorblumesea 9y ago

I really appreciate this comment, mostly because I feel an immense amount of pressure to use my remaining time to do something "amazing" or keep up with the insane rate of frontend changes. I feel the core issue is that as developers/engineers, we spend a lot of time doing things that companies want, which can be at odds with skill growth, professional development or other things that are actually really important to making ourselves better. If I want to learn something new or improve myself, it's done on my time, not the company's. I guess this does make some sense, because they hired me to build things, not to study, although allowing me to spend some free time doing interesting things is known to provide large dividends. I think the solution to this is the 20% time rule, but Google only really does this.

kmicklas 9y ago
> I think the solution to this is the 20% time rule, but Google only really does this. Google doesn't really do this either anymore.
- the_common_man 9y ago
  Why was it discontinued? Seems like a win-win to Google and Employees. I thought gmail came out of this 20% time...
  - taneq 9y ago
    Just judging from comments here, it sounds like officially it's still running but unofficially that 20% time had better not detract any actual work hours from any of your official work. So really it's "work 20% overtime on whatever you want, and the company will own it" which doesn't sound very motivating to me.
nolanpro 9y ago
Some smaller companies and startup still do this. They need to in order to attract good talent. Toss that in with the fact that they sometimes pay better (for the same reason) and a fairly decent balance can be had.

deleted 9y ago

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Arete3141 9y ago

I also second the joys of a part-time job. One of the most productive periods in my working life was when I had a job that was 30 hours a week. I worked 6 hours a day -- so that forced me to get out of bed, shower, and become fully human -- and then in the evenings I had enough time and energy to make real progress on my artistic goals. I even found that the pay cut wasn't a 25% pay cut, but more like a 10% pay cut, because with the extra time I had, I did more shopping and meal planning, and spent less money overall on conveniences. I could afford to do things the "inconvenient" way. I wish more companies in tech considered offering part time jobs. I know there would be a lot of people interested in those jobs, and they would be super loyal employees because they would be psyched to have the chance to have a real life.

olejorgenb 9y ago
Yeah, I asked for a reduced position without luck. (a development/programming position)

EdgarVerona 9y ago

I think this is important. Someone else mentioned that this isn't helpful for what he asked, but I think it is - I think it's important that we understand that working is not passive. If you're working 40 (or in some of our cases, 50, 60, 70) hours a week, you are devoting a significant portion of your life to creation. I agree with the points others made about how to avoid burnout, find things you're passionate about etc... but I hope the question asker understands that what they're doing does have value. The value may be labor - which, indeed, is undervalued in society compared to actually being the controller/owner of the product on which work is being performed - but it is creating value just the same. Now, if you reach a point where you want all of that value to be creating to be yours and not mostly someone else's, or if you find you have energy to spare to start working on side projects, then you may be ready to move from putting labor into other people's products to putting labor into your own. But there's no shame in working hard and earning a paycheck, and devoting the other time in your life to doing whatever it is that makes you happy. (and if what makes you happy ends up being creating a side project that turns into something where you control your own product, that's great!)

jakewins 9y ago

For anyone interested, as someone that currently works 75%: At my last career change, I applied for a full time position, but asked if the employer would consider hiring me at 75%, with a matching reduction in salary. I work full time days, but am not paid to work Fridays plus a full week each quarter. Pros: the time off itself has been brilliant; I spend that extra time learning computer vision programming in Go, and took a part time class to become a certified master gardener (massively recommended, best $150 I ever spent(1)); it also leaves time for recreational fishing, hiking and hunting. Cons: It's a strain on my career, it's not just that I work less, but the fact that I'm gone as much as I am has somewhat limited which tasks I'm able to take on properly; it's also, at least for myself, psychologically problematic since I lead a team and the rest of the team is full time. All-in-all, I think the career drawback is by far outweighed by both the quality of life and skills I've gained; I'm not sure if it's sustainable as the company grows from a small startup to a more regular company. For now, I'm very much enjoying working part time. (1) http://mg.missouri.edu/ http://mg.missouri.edu/

erikb 9y ago
I did that as well for some time. Consider not taking a whole day off, but but taking off two hours here and two hours there. This way you seem much more available but may actually be even more flexible in how to spend your free time. Of course that requires a lot more flexibility on your part. But the payout in time and career success is worth it.
richdougherty 9y ago
I did this too for about 5 years, except I took 2 weeks off each quarter. I learned Scala, programming language theory, did papers on finance and logic, etc. The job I have now is based on some of the open source work I did during that period. When I took time off to work on interesting stuff I found I was more practical and sensible in my main job. When I designed solutions I was very business focused. I didn't need to use the latest tech or do novel work, since I could do that in my own time. The day off each week kept me fresh and interested without needing to get that from my main job.

ams6110 9y ago

It's interesting -- I have sort of been coming to the same conclusion myself. I work full-time and have a family. I have ideas for side projects and learning new stuff but on any given day, after work and activities with kids I usually don't feel like spending the hour or two of spare time I might have on something that takes a lot of mental engagement. Sometimes on weekends, if there isn't a lot else going on, I'll spend a few hours on a Sunday afternoon on that sort of thing, but beyond that it generally doesn't happen. Of course I then feel bad that I'm not getting things done that I want to do, but have lately been more inclined to think that I'm already at capacity and it just isn't going to happen unless I trade off something else. So now I'm evaluating whether I would really get more reward out of pursuing these extra activities at the expense of something else, or if I should stop even thinking about it and just enjoy what is already happening in my life.

samirillian 9y ago

Uggh, no. What's that saying about how eloquent one can be about a thing if one's salary depends on it?

alexcnwy 9y ago

I think there's something of a catch-22 here where it's much easier to get a low-hours job when you've already put yourself out there and have something like a blog that you can point to. One thing I'd suggest is speaking to your employer and saying you'd like to take some time off to travel (preferably if you can spin this as needing to see family or something that would make them look like a dick for saying no to) but that you'd like to continue working while you're doing so and can commit to keeping all your current tasks going and bill say 40 hours per month. I think many employers are paying full time salaries but only really need like 40-80 hours of work per month but they can't just pay for those hours so they pay a full time salary and the remaining time gets filled. Suggesting they can get 40 good, accountable hours per month can be a win win. Worked for me at least.

heyoni 9y ago

I would add that if you can find some overlap between your daily job and any personal goals you've set, you could potentially be using your good creative energy for two things rather than one.