5 ms·

This is such an eggshells issue. I think a lot of people probably feel extremely reluctant to speak openly about this, or try to diagnose it, and that seems ver

by b6 9y ago

This is such an eggshells issue. I think a lot of people probably feel extremely reluctant to speak openly about this, or try to diagnose it, and that seems very bad, because children are suffering and their futures are being compromised. I don't doubt for a second that the school systems are letting kids down, at least somewhat. I'm a huge critic of public education, based on bitter experience. On the other hand, schools cannot be expected to produce great results no matter what else is happening in a child's life. If we were to look at the demographics of these schools, would we find that 99% of the students are black? It matters in this case because there's an epidemic of fatherlessness among American blacks, and it's known to be very detrimental to the development of children. Who knows how much of a role this factor plays, but not mentioning it seems like a doctor not mentioning smoking might be the culprit in a patient's cancer. If I'm wrong and there's some other more likely smoking gun in this situation, please tell me. I would like to know about it.

watwut 9y ago
I am all for ending war on drugs and sentencing disparity. I am also all for change of culture in which father role is primary seen as a walking wallet with little importance to actually spend time with children. However, none of it will magically change all that much unless school system changes fundamentally. As of now, schools with most difficult students get less funding and less experienced overworked teachers. They can not suceed, realistically.
PKop 9y ago
Took a while to find a comment that gets to the meat of the issue: Does culture matter? Most people on Hacker News will breathlessly tell you it does, at least when running a company. Well how about a community, a school, a neighborhood, a family? There is a cultural problem, with many layers. 72% of of black children are raised without fathers. Do people think that might have some impacts on culture, education, discipline, crime, poverty?
extra88 9y ago
Why would you latch onto fatherlessness rather than poverty, lack of safety, or lack of a healthy environment?
- humanrebar 9y ago
  1. Single parent households have it harder on average. In American culture, that generally means that mothers (and grandmothers) raise the kids, not the dads. "Fatherlessness" is shorthand for this. 2. Men actually bring some things to family and neighborhood culture. Some people might get offended at this notion, but it's not controversial to say that femininity is wonderful, distinctive, and has special things to offer. But this must also be true of masculinity. I'd argue that men, generally speaking, have different ways to approach the problems you list. This is applying the "diversity makes us better" principle in a place really needing some new ideas and new strength.
  - extra88 9y ago
    > have it harder on average "Harder" meaning the affects of poverty, right? Having two parents involved is only one way to address that. Starting with talking about fatherlessness and "culture" is blaming the victims and, frankly, racist. I'm not saying a cycle of negative learned behaviors is irrelevant but there are so many other factors to address first.
    - humanrebar 9y ago
      > "Harder" meaning the affects of poverty, right? Having two parents involved is only one way to address that. Not just poverty. Middle class single parent households have it harder than equivalent two parent households as well. We respect good single parents especially because we recognize how much harder it is to, say, take classes in the evening or lead the PTA if you're also making sure your kids are clothed, educated, fed, nurtured, safe, and so on. > Starting with talking about fatherlessness and "culture" is blaming the victims and, frankly, racist. I don't think this cultural issue is unique to black communities or even urban ones. I've already posted on race and fatherlessness: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14387245 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14387245 Please stop attacking allies. There's enough convincing to do without outgrouping and ending discussions of important issues by throwing around conversation killing (and frankly inaccurate) epithets. ...as far as blaming victims... I'm not interested in putting anyone in stockades on any of this. I do think we need to recalibrate our cultural calculus on what kids need to properly thrive. Home situations should absolutely be on the table, not for the purpose of judging, but for the purpose of setting expectations for prospective parents, people deciding whether to make marriages work, people picking out potential mates, etc. Part of the problem, in my mind, is that in our effort to avoid victim blaming, we framed certain life choices as valid forms of self actualization instead of truthfully really hard situations. There has to be a way to be supportive and loving to single parents without also misleading the next generation into thinking that finding committed partners isn't also a big priority. > ...there are so many other factors to address first. Are there? Why is the social injustice of family structure on the bottom of the list?
humanrebar 9y ago
> ...in this case because there's an epidemic of fatherlessness among American blacks To be fair, it's a massive problem (and growing) in latino and non-latino white populations as well. Black populations experienced the issues first, but it's an across-the-board issue for lower middle class and impoverished communities now.
tboyd47 9y ago
What a bizarre way to frame this. Poor test results are due to not having a father which is due to being black? How about poor test results because you are too busy learning and abiding by the complex and demanding rules of the street, out of fear of being shot, to worry about another set of comparatively pointless and inane rules inside the classroom? And maybe not having a father due to the "War on Drugs" practically relocating entire communities of black men into the prison system? Or maybe not striving to excel in school because even though you're intelligent, resourceful, caring, etc., you've grown up watching your family and friends get murdered by the police in their own neighborhoods for petty crimes or no crime at all, so you end up feeling the same apathy and hopelessness towards your country that your country feels towards you. Or here's another one: perhaps the tests are rigged. The news segment in the original link alludes to this towards the end - was anyone on HN able to find the video explaining this?
- PKop 9y ago
  How are these disagreements with the premise? You've outlined exactly why it likely has a massive impact. Look at the disparity between one-parent homes by race. Do you think this doesn't matter? You just spelled out exactly why it would... edit: I don't think the strong argument is "because you're black" but moreso "because you're not growing up in a two parent / married household" (Correlation is not causation.. but there's quite a bit of correlation) http://www.heritage.org/poverty-and-inequality/report/marriage-americas-greatest-weapon-against-child-poverty-0 http://www.heritage.org/poverty-and-inequality/report/marria...
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - tboyd47 9y ago
    Good, then we agree. I just prefer to discuss the actual causes of the issue instead of bringing up vague statistics then saying, "What do you suppose that means, hmm?" Edit: I agree with you that marriage is important, but I feel the systemic racial bias aspect is much more pressing and much easier to confront. I'm all for promoting caring two-parent households, but to just point to the lack of a father in the house and leave the issue at that is both counterproductive and unfair.
obstinate 9y ago
> some other more likely smoking gun in this situation Extreme poverty comes to mind.

by b6 9y ago

watwut 9y ago

I am all for ending war on drugs and sentencing disparity. I am also all for change of culture in which father role is primary seen as a walking wallet with little importance to actually spend time with children. However, none of it will magically change all that much unless school system changes fundamentally. As of now, schools with most difficult students get less funding and less experienced overworked teachers. They can not suceed, realistically.

PKop 9y ago

Took a while to find a comment that gets to the meat of the issue: Does culture matter? Most people on Hacker News will breathlessly tell you it does, at least when running a company. Well how about a community, a school, a neighborhood, a family? There is a cultural problem, with many layers. 72% of of black children are raised without fathers. Do people think that might have some impacts on culture, education, discipline, crime, poverty?

extra88 9y ago

Why would you latch onto fatherlessness rather than poverty, lack of safety, or lack of a healthy environment?

humanrebar 9y ago
1. Single parent households have it harder on average. In American culture, that generally means that mothers (and grandmothers) raise the kids, not the dads. "Fatherlessness" is shorthand for this. 2. Men actually bring some things to family and neighborhood culture. Some people might get offended at this notion, but it's not controversial to say that femininity is wonderful, distinctive, and has special things to offer. But this must also be true of masculinity. I'd argue that men, generally speaking, have different ways to approach the problems you list. This is applying the "diversity makes us better" principle in a place really needing some new ideas and new strength.
- extra88 9y ago
  > have it harder on average "Harder" meaning the affects of poverty, right? Having two parents involved is only one way to address that. Starting with talking about fatherlessness and "culture" is blaming the victims and, frankly, racist. I'm not saying a cycle of negative learned behaviors is irrelevant but there are so many other factors to address first.
  - humanrebar 9y ago
    > "Harder" meaning the affects of poverty, right? Having two parents involved is only one way to address that. Not just poverty. Middle class single parent households have it harder than equivalent two parent households as well. We respect good single parents especially because we recognize how much harder it is to, say, take classes in the evening or lead the PTA if you're also making sure your kids are clothed, educated, fed, nurtured, safe, and so on. > Starting with talking about fatherlessness and "culture" is blaming the victims and, frankly, racist. I don't think this cultural issue is unique to black communities or even urban ones. I've already posted on race and fatherlessness: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14387245 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14387245 Please stop attacking allies. There's enough convincing to do without outgrouping and ending discussions of important issues by throwing around conversation killing (and frankly inaccurate) epithets. ...as far as blaming victims... I'm not interested in putting anyone in stockades on any of this. I do think we need to recalibrate our cultural calculus on what kids need to properly thrive. Home situations should absolutely be on the table, not for the purpose of judging, but for the purpose of setting expectations for prospective parents, people deciding whether to make marriages work, people picking out potential mates, etc. Part of the problem, in my mind, is that in our effort to avoid victim blaming, we framed certain life choices as valid forms of self actualization instead of truthfully really hard situations. There has to be a way to be supportive and loving to single parents without also misleading the next generation into thinking that finding committed partners isn't also a big priority. > ...there are so many other factors to address first. Are there? Why is the social injustice of family structure on the bottom of the list?

humanrebar 9y ago

> ...in this case because there's an epidemic of fatherlessness among American blacks To be fair, it's a massive problem (and growing) in latino and non-latino white populations as well. Black populations experienced the issues first, but it's an across-the-board issue for lower middle class and impoverished communities now.

tboyd47 9y ago

What a bizarre way to frame this. Poor test results are due to not having a father which is due to being black? How about poor test results because you are too busy learning and abiding by the complex and demanding rules of the street, out of fear of being shot, to worry about another set of comparatively pointless and inane rules inside the classroom? And maybe not having a father due to the "War on Drugs" practically relocating entire communities of black men into the prison system? Or maybe not striving to excel in school because even though you're intelligent, resourceful, caring, etc., you've grown up watching your family and friends get murdered by the police in their own neighborhoods for petty crimes or no crime at all, so you end up feeling the same apathy and hopelessness towards your country that your country feels towards you. Or here's another one: perhaps the tests are rigged. The news segment in the original link alludes to this towards the end - was anyone on HN able to find the video explaining this?

PKop 9y ago
How are these disagreements with the premise? You've outlined exactly why it likely has a massive impact. Look at the disparity between one-parent homes by race. Do you think this doesn't matter? You just spelled out exactly why it would... edit: I don't think the strong argument is "because you're black" but moreso "because you're not growing up in a two parent / married household" (Correlation is not causation.. but there's quite a bit of correlation) http://www.heritage.org/poverty-and-inequality/report/marriage-americas-greatest-weapon-against-child-poverty-0 http://www.heritage.org/poverty-and-inequality/report/marria...
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- tboyd47 9y ago
  Good, then we agree. I just prefer to discuss the actual causes of the issue instead of bringing up vague statistics then saying, "What do you suppose that means, hmm?" Edit: I agree with you that marriage is important, but I feel the systemic racial bias aspect is much more pressing and much easier to confront. I'm all for promoting caring two-parent households, but to just point to the lack of a father in the house and leave the issue at that is both counterproductive and unfair.

obstinate 9y ago

> some other more likely smoking gun in this situation Extreme poverty comes to mind.