4 ms·

Freelance rates/help

7 points by pcglue 9y ago

Do you charge a different rate for meetings/reviews vs. the actual technical work? If a client doesn't ask for your rates, how do you initiate the discussion?

mattbgates 9y ago
While I don't charge for reading an email, I do tend to charge my regular rate for a Skype or phone call. If you don't charge your clients, they will take full advantage of your time, and they need to see that you are a professional and your time is money. If you want to offer your first meeting on the phone for free, like a consultation, on what they want, what your terms are, than that is no problem. I have made the mistake of not charging in the past, and I don't technically charge to read or respond to emails, though I might factor in some of the work - at least - say something takes me a minimum of 25 minutes to do, I will charge an hour of labor because I've had to take some time out to understand their email and clarify that the work they want is accurate from the information I understood it to be. In this fast-paced world, meetings can eat up a lot of [your] time. And sometimes you do get those clients who want to meet you in person or they always want to talk to you on the phone. I had one client who kept wanting to meet with me every single week, and I lived close to her business, about 15 minutes away, and the first two or three times, I did not charge her for it. I was naive and just happy to have her as a client, since her business was popular in town. It got old real quick. I decided to charge her her for those meetings, which usually lasted anywhere from an hour to two hours. Once those charges came, the meetings switched over to email or a very brief quick phone call real quick. I have since trained my clients to send email. Paper trails are much more accurate than in-person meetings or phone calls. They protect me and my client so there are no misunderstandings of what was said vs. what was heard. Clients will usually send me an email with work they want or need. Before I start any work, I normally reply back and inform the client: "Please confirm by replying that it is okay for me to begin an invoice and work on what you want me to do. You will be billed at my normal rate of X per hour." This confirmation they reply back with is an email of their recognition that I am doing work for them and my billing has begun. While I've never had issues, stating your business clearly of what you are doing, what you are charging, and them agreeing to you doing it, is for your own protection and theirs. An email can protect you as it can serve as a legal contract in the court of law.
brudgers 9y ago
No. I charge the same rate. For travel to the client's location sometimes I will use a per trip rate instead of a per hour/day rate for trips to the client's site. I stopped discounting rates years ago because it does not help me and encourages the notion that it might be ok to not pay me or pay me less in a client's mind. Because my rate structure is simple. I can describe it easily: W per hour/day. X markup on expenses. Y per mile travel. Z as retainer applied against final invoice based on my non-binding estimate of the time it will take to do the project based on the client's description (often Z is from 25% to 50% of the initial non-binding estimate). Most projects take at least K hours/days. I don't wait for a potential client to bring up rates. Once it is apparent that the person is soliciting services, I describe my rates. This avoids wasting both our time when there is a gap between a potential client's economic expectations and my rates. It avoids wasting my time with potential client's who balk at writing me a check to get started...willingness and ability to pay are features of a good potential client. Execution of payment is a better criterion than a signed contract for separating actual clients from potential clients. A reluctance to pay me is a good criterion for distinguishing bad clients. To put it another way, the essence of consulting is the business of "nickeling and dimeing" clients. And in general, charging money is the essence of business. A reluctance to charge people money is not wrong but it is at odds with trying to run a business. The flat rate up front replaced my previous system where I would tell the client that I would follow up with a proposal and then spend time researching and pondering and estimating and then putting together a document and then waiting for the client's response or non-response. Good luck.
- Communitivity 9y ago
  Agreed, and the above is important advice, because there is a bias on the part of potential clients. If you do not charge them for what they expect to be charged then that makes them uncomfortable with hiring you. In other words, if your rate is lower or you give them freebies they weren't expecting, then they think you are are having trouble getting work - and what do the other potential clients passing on you know that they don't? Sometimes they think this consciously, sometimes subconsciously. In a way, it is like dating.. your potential date has to feel appreciated, but not so appreciated that you look desperate. I see this in starting consultants all the time, though usually it is as a discounted rate rather than out and out not charging for somethings. These consultants don't realize that they are telling potential customers 'I value myself at X, less valuable than my competition'. They also don't realize that once you give a customer a rate it is difficult to raise the rate later and retain the customer (it can be done, but puts stress on the relationship). My advice is to charge what you are worth. One way is to figure out how much you would be making in a corporate job, not as a self employed freelancer. Say $160k. Now, once you go self-employed you will need to pay an addition 6.2% (12.4% total) for social security on money up to $118k, 2.9% for medicare, and to be safe you should allocate 25% to health care costs (seems unreasonable, but it does add up - you can trim here to match your health, but it would be better to sock away any extra in a given year). Back of the napkin, and very roughly, that means you need to be making $261k to approach the same take home (261000-(.25 x 261000)-(.124 x 118000)(.029 x 261000)-(.05 x 261000)). Given that if you work 8 hour days (not likely), and allocated 25% to overhead, that gives 2000 hours * 75% = 1500 hours, and a rate of $174/hour. However, your overhead might be more, and there are other costs (such as liability insurance). Also, you will be better off if you charge by the week, rather than the hour, because your accounting will be much simpler. I am neither an accountant, nor a lawyer, so consider the above my personal opinion and do your own due diligence before starting down this road. It is a great road, and managed properly can be successful. Beware though, it is high stress, and will eat up your time with your family.
stephenr 9y ago
An initial call I will do for free, to find out what the client wants, how I can help them, etc. If we agree to move forward, I'll bring up payments with them, part of which is agreeing on a rate. After that, any significant time is billed, and labeled so they can see where the time (money) is going.
tedmiston 9y ago
You have to initiate the rate though you can inquire about their budget. I wouldn't charge separate rates. As soon as you do this, you open yourself up to needless bickering about how much of your time was spent on x vs y. It becomes complicated to separate sessions that are programming intertwined with technical discussion.
troels 9y ago
I wouldn't charge different rates. The way I look at it, when I'm charging an hourly rate, the client is paying for my time. What value the client derives from that time isn't really relevant to the cost. Or put another way. I know I can sell my time at X in the market, because I have done so before. Thus, it makes no sense for me to sell it at a rate lower than X, regardless of what I actually do.
pcglue 9y ago
Thanks everyone, it's been helpful to hear how others do things. I already met with the client and exchanged a couple emails. First meeting I'll do free because I want to vet the client as well. But this client asked for another meeting to go over details and still hasn't asked about my rates. In my reply agreeing to this next meeting, I also mentioned what my rates are. Client accepted my terms right away. I freelance on the side, so I don't do this a whole lot, but this was the first client I've come across that didn't ask about rates at the very first meeting. I've come to suspect, though, he's already financially independent and this business is a "fun" thing for him, so maybe that has something to do with it.

7 points by pcglue 9y ago

Do you charge a different rate for meetings/reviews vs. the actual technical work? If a client doesn't ask for your rates, how do you initiate the discussion?

mattbgates 9y ago

While I don't charge for reading an email, I do tend to charge my regular rate for a Skype or phone call. If you don't charge your clients, they will take full advantage of your time, and they need to see that you are a professional and your time is money. If you want to offer your first meeting on the phone for free, like a consultation, on what they want, what your terms are, than that is no problem. I have made the mistake of not charging in the past, and I don't technically charge to read or respond to emails, though I might factor in some of the work - at least - say something takes me a minimum of 25 minutes to do, I will charge an hour of labor because I've had to take some time out to understand their email and clarify that the work they want is accurate from the information I understood it to be. In this fast-paced world, meetings can eat up a lot of [your] time. And sometimes you do get those clients who want to meet you in person or they always want to talk to you on the phone. I had one client who kept wanting to meet with me every single week, and I lived close to her business, about 15 minutes away, and the first two or three times, I did not charge her for it. I was naive and just happy to have her as a client, since her business was popular in town. It got old real quick. I decided to charge her her for those meetings, which usually lasted anywhere from an hour to two hours. Once those charges came, the meetings switched over to email or a very brief quick phone call real quick. I have since trained my clients to send email. Paper trails are much more accurate than in-person meetings or phone calls. They protect me and my client so there are no misunderstandings of what was said vs. what was heard. Clients will usually send me an email with work they want or need. Before I start any work, I normally reply back and inform the client: "Please confirm by replying that it is okay for me to begin an invoice and work on what you want me to do. You will be billed at my normal rate of X per hour." This confirmation they reply back with is an email of their recognition that I am doing work for them and my billing has begun. While I've never had issues, stating your business clearly of what you are doing, what you are charging, and them agreeing to you doing it, is for your own protection and theirs. An email can protect you as it can serve as a legal contract in the court of law.

brudgers 9y ago

No. I charge the same rate. For travel to the client's location sometimes I will use a per trip rate instead of a per hour/day rate for trips to the client's site. I stopped discounting rates years ago because it does not help me and encourages the notion that it might be ok to not pay me or pay me less in a client's mind. Because my rate structure is simple. I can describe it easily: W per hour/day. X markup on expenses. Y per mile travel. Z as retainer applied against final invoice based on my non-binding estimate of the time it will take to do the project based on the client's description (often Z is from 25% to 50% of the initial non-binding estimate). Most projects take at least K hours/days. I don't wait for a potential client to bring up rates. Once it is apparent that the person is soliciting services, I describe my rates. This avoids wasting both our time when there is a gap between a potential client's economic expectations and my rates. It avoids wasting my time with potential client's who balk at writing me a check to get started...willingness and ability to pay are features of a good potential client. Execution of payment is a better criterion than a signed contract for separating actual clients from potential clients. A reluctance to pay me is a good criterion for distinguishing bad clients. To put it another way, the essence of consulting is the business of "nickeling and dimeing" clients. And in general, charging money is the essence of business. A reluctance to charge people money is not wrong but it is at odds with trying to run a business. The flat rate up front replaced my previous system where I would tell the client that I would follow up with a proposal and then spend time researching and pondering and estimating and then putting together a document and then waiting for the client's response or non-response. Good luck.

Communitivity 9y ago
Agreed, and the above is important advice, because there is a bias on the part of potential clients. If you do not charge them for what they expect to be charged then that makes them uncomfortable with hiring you. In other words, if your rate is lower or you give them freebies they weren't expecting, then they think you are are having trouble getting work - and what do the other potential clients passing on you know that they don't? Sometimes they think this consciously, sometimes subconsciously. In a way, it is like dating.. your potential date has to feel appreciated, but not so appreciated that you look desperate. I see this in starting consultants all the time, though usually it is as a discounted rate rather than out and out not charging for somethings. These consultants don't realize that they are telling potential customers 'I value myself at X, less valuable than my competition'. They also don't realize that once you give a customer a rate it is difficult to raise the rate later and retain the customer (it can be done, but puts stress on the relationship). My advice is to charge what you are worth. One way is to figure out how much you would be making in a corporate job, not as a self employed freelancer. Say $160k. Now, once you go self-employed you will need to pay an addition 6.2% (12.4% total) for social security on money up to $118k, 2.9% for medicare, and to be safe you should allocate 25% to health care costs (seems unreasonable, but it does add up - you can trim here to match your health, but it would be better to sock away any extra in a given year). Back of the napkin, and very roughly, that means you need to be making $261k to approach the same take home (261000-(.25 x 261000)-(.124 x 118000)(.029 x 261000)-(.05 x 261000)). Given that if you work 8 hour days (not likely), and allocated 25% to overhead, that gives 2000 hours * 75% = 1500 hours, and a rate of $174/hour. However, your overhead might be more, and there are other costs (such as liability insurance). Also, you will be better off if you charge by the week, rather than the hour, because your accounting will be much simpler. I am neither an accountant, nor a lawyer, so consider the above my personal opinion and do your own due diligence before starting down this road. It is a great road, and managed properly can be successful. Beware though, it is high stress, and will eat up your time with your family.

stephenr 9y ago

An initial call I will do for free, to find out what the client wants, how I can help them, etc. If we agree to move forward, I'll bring up payments with them, part of which is agreeing on a rate. After that, any significant time is billed, and labeled so they can see where the time (money) is going.

tedmiston 9y ago

You have to initiate the rate though you can inquire about their budget. I wouldn't charge separate rates. As soon as you do this, you open yourself up to needless bickering about how much of your time was spent on x vs y. It becomes complicated to separate sessions that are programming intertwined with technical discussion.

troels 9y ago

I wouldn't charge different rates. The way I look at it, when I'm charging an hourly rate, the client is paying for my time. What value the client derives from that time isn't really relevant to the cost. Or put another way. I know I can sell my time at X in the market, because I have done so before. Thus, it makes no sense for me to sell it at a rate lower than X, regardless of what I actually do.

pcglue 9y ago

Thanks everyone, it's been helpful to hear how others do things. I already met with the client and exchanged a couple emails. First meeting I'll do free because I want to vet the client as well. But this client asked for another meeting to go over details and still hasn't asked about my rates. In my reply agreeing to this next meeting, I also mentioned what my rates are. Client accepted my terms right away. I freelance on the side, so I don't do this a whole lot, but this was the first client I've come across that didn't ask about rates at the very first meeting. I've come to suspect, though, he's already financially independent and this business is a "fun" thing for him, so maybe that has something to do with it.