6 ms·

Cryp.sr - the next step

43 points by alexandros 16y ago

samdk 16y ago
This is really cool. I've thought about how a host-proof app might be built, but not very seriously. I actually have a pretty simple project coming up that'd benefit from it, too. Maybe this'll motivate me to experiment. Any resources/reading you'd suggest, or have you mostly been figuring this out on your own? edit Ah, I see you've written a bit on it yourself (http://corte.si/posts/security/hostproof.html http://corte.si/posts/security/hostproof.html). Time to go exploring! As far as the actual app goes, I have only one real gripe. Being used to Vim, I expect i to add before and a to add after (with I adding at the beginning, and A at the end). Not having i/I do anything confused me for a moment.
- cortesi 16y ago
  I agree. I might add "i" as an add-before keybinding in the next release.
  - jessor 16y ago
    heh, confused me for a second, too. anyways, it's super cool to see this expand into a really useful webapp. keep going!
mileszs 16y ago
Nice. I love the vim keybindings and markdown support. I was unable to bring up the help modal box when pressing '?'. The only way to get to it was to use my mouse to press the question mark link at the top right. This seems an odd place for this sort of feedback, but I saw no other avenue.
- cortesi 16y ago
  Odd. What browser did you use? The other keybindings worked, I take it? I just noticed that cryp.sr had made it to HN - I'll check here for bug reports, or you can just email me at aldo@corte.si.
  - ihumanable 16y ago
    I'm having the same problem. Firefox 3.6.3 on Mac OSX 10.5.8 All the other keybindings worked fine.
roryokane 16y ago
The idea is cool, and I like your additional list features. But the interface needs more alternate, intuitive ways of navigation compared to the vim keybindings (I don't use a terminal text editor). You can already click on an item to select it, but it would be nice if you could drag and drop the items, both up and down and left and right. Actually, I think all the interface features I suggest would just be in OmniOutliner (http://www.omnigroup.com/products/omnioutliner/ http://www.omnigroup.com/products/omnioutliner/) – just try out OmniOutliner if you can and note the interface. The most relevant keyboard shortcuts: Command-Shift-{ and } for creating a new parent-sibling or child, Esc for toggling between selecting the list item and editing it, left and right for collapsing and expanding items. There might be features in its menus and inspectors that would be useful, too. Also, a toggle-able help toolbar might be nice. It would display the key bindings in the ? help box along with their descriptions, and they would be clickable links. This would make it easier for new users to learn the key bindings.
cturner 16y ago
Impressive idea and implementation. I love that you're going for vi keybindings. Lots of possibilities. You could add a popup that comes in when user presses ':' to allow macros. I'd prefer it if you went with 'a' being to edit the current line, and puts the cursor at the end; 'i' to edit line with cursor at beginning, and to use 'o' for add-new-line-after-current line; 'O' to add the line before. If you could turn this into a powerful text editor that would be really neat. Another thing that might be useful is an authentication mechanism that tries to proof against the most obvious internet-cafe afflications (keyboard grabbers, that sort of thing).
- mitjak 16y ago
  +1 for the macros, -1 for a powerful text editor. Keep it simple.
ErrantX 16y ago
Unless I have read this wrong cryp.sr uses Javascript to encrypt/decrypt data right? In which case "host proof" is really only a marketing term. This has been discussed a couple of times here in the past week or so (mostly by tpatcek) and, really, there is no way to effectively secure data just with Javascript. These sorts of apps have some use - so long as users understand the flaws involved and trust the server owner (and their browser).
- cortesi 16y ago
  This is not correct, on a few fronts. It _is_ possible to secure data with just Javascript (with care), and "host proof" describes a design philosophy that has real meaning - Google the term, and look at excellent commercial projects like Clipperz (who use "zero knowledge" as a synonym for "host proof"). You can also read this post I wrote when I took my first skeptical look at the idea. It discusses how and why the host-proof idea could work, and finds some flaws in Clipperz and PassPack, the two most prominent "host-proof" commercial apps: http://corte.si/posts/security/hostproof.html http://corte.si/posts/security/hostproof.html I should note that Clipperz has now addressed all the points I raised in my post. The "host-proof" idea has been around for a while, but is really just in its infancy. There's a lot of work to be done, but the idea is both important and promising.
  - ErrantX 16y ago
    Yes I understand your point; but it still comes down to trusting to server (which is fine, but it is something "host proof" doesn't really encourage IMO). The verification is all very well and good; but you have to either verify the code each time (a pain) or trust the server between the times you do review the code. For most people reviewing the code is impractical. We discussed all this before in great detail; I'll try to dig out the threads. But from a security perspective this sort of stuff has a use, but not for things you really must keep secure. As a start: because the code of the app is sent "over the wire" with some regularity it is trivial to intercept and modify it.
    - cortesi 16y ago

43 points by alexandros 16y ago

samdk 16y ago

This is really cool. I've thought about how a host-proof app might be built, but not very seriously. I actually have a pretty simple project coming up that'd benefit from it, too. Maybe this'll motivate me to experiment. Any resources/reading you'd suggest, or have you mostly been figuring this out on your own? edit Ah, I see you've written a bit on it yourself (http://corte.si/posts/security/hostproof.html http://corte.si/posts/security/hostproof.html). Time to go exploring! As far as the actual app goes, I have only one real gripe. Being used to Vim, I expect i to add before and a to add after (with I adding at the beginning, and A at the end). Not having i/I do anything confused me for a moment.

cortesi 16y ago
I agree. I might add "i" as an add-before keybinding in the next release.
- jessor 16y ago
  heh, confused me for a second, too. anyways, it's super cool to see this expand into a really useful webapp. keep going!

mileszs 16y ago

Nice. I love the vim keybindings and markdown support. I was unable to bring up the help modal box when pressing '?'. The only way to get to it was to use my mouse to press the question mark link at the top right. This seems an odd place for this sort of feedback, but I saw no other avenue.

cortesi 16y ago
Odd. What browser did you use? The other keybindings worked, I take it? I just noticed that cryp.sr had made it to HN - I'll check here for bug reports, or you can just email me at aldo@corte.si.
- ihumanable 16y ago
  I'm having the same problem. Firefox 3.6.3 on Mac OSX 10.5.8 All the other keybindings worked fine.

roryokane 16y ago

The idea is cool, and I like your additional list features. But the interface needs more alternate, intuitive ways of navigation compared to the vim keybindings (I don't use a terminal text editor). You can already click on an item to select it, but it would be nice if you could drag and drop the items, both up and down and left and right. Actually, I think all the interface features I suggest would just be in OmniOutliner (http://www.omnigroup.com/products/omnioutliner/ http://www.omnigroup.com/products/omnioutliner/) – just try out OmniOutliner if you can and note the interface. The most relevant keyboard shortcuts: Command-Shift-{ and } for creating a new parent-sibling or child, Esc for toggling between selecting the list item and editing it, left and right for collapsing and expanding items. There might be features in its menus and inspectors that would be useful, too. Also, a toggle-able help toolbar might be nice. It would display the key bindings in the ? help box along with their descriptions, and they would be clickable links. This would make it easier for new users to learn the key bindings.

cturner 16y ago

Impressive idea and implementation. I love that you're going for vi keybindings. Lots of possibilities. You could add a popup that comes in when user presses ':' to allow macros. I'd prefer it if you went with 'a' being to edit the current line, and puts the cursor at the end; 'i' to edit line with cursor at beginning, and to use 'o' for add-new-line-after-current line; 'O' to add the line before. If you could turn this into a powerful text editor that would be really neat. Another thing that might be useful is an authentication mechanism that tries to proof against the most obvious internet-cafe afflications (keyboard grabbers, that sort of thing).

mitjak 16y ago
+1 for the macros, -1 for a powerful text editor. Keep it simple.

ErrantX 16y ago

Unless I have read this wrong cryp.sr uses Javascript to encrypt/decrypt data right? In which case "host proof" is really only a marketing term. This has been discussed a couple of times here in the past week or so (mostly by tpatcek) and, really, there is no way to effectively secure data just with Javascript. These sorts of apps have some use - so long as users understand the flaws involved and trust the server owner (and their browser).

cortesi 16y ago
This is not correct, on a few fronts. It _is_ possible to secure data with just Javascript (with care), and "host proof" describes a design philosophy that has real meaning - Google the term, and look at excellent commercial projects like Clipperz (who use "zero knowledge" as a synonym for "host proof"). You can also read this post I wrote when I took my first skeptical look at the idea. It discusses how and why the host-proof idea could work, and finds some flaws in Clipperz and PassPack, the two most prominent "host-proof" commercial apps: http://corte.si/posts/security/hostproof.html http://corte.si/posts/security/hostproof.html I should note that Clipperz has now addressed all the points I raised in my post. The "host-proof" idea has been around for a while, but is really just in its infancy. There's a lot of work to be done, but the idea is both important and promising.
- ErrantX 16y ago
  Yes I understand your point; but it still comes down to trusting to server (which is fine, but it is something "host proof" doesn't really encourage IMO). The verification is all very well and good; but you have to either verify the code each time (a pain) or trust the server between the times you do review the code. For most people reviewing the code is impractical. We discussed all this before in great detail; I'll try to dig out the threads. But from a security perspective this sort of stuff has a use, but not for things you really must keep secure. As a start: because the code of the app is sent "over the wire" with some regularity it is trivial to intercept and modify it.
  - cortesi 16y ago