3 ms·

I've noticed something about the UK: it's the most "compliant" country I've been to. This isn't always a bad thing: it means that when the rude person in the mo

I've noticed something about the UK: it's the most "compliant" country I've been to. This isn't always a bad thing: it means that when the rude person in the movie theater is told off they'll shut up and sit down. But it also means that when the government tells the population "we're going to surveil you and control what you read" the vast majority of people don't raise a fuss. One example of this was when I was photographing some buildings in the UK. I was stopped by a police officer, and knew my UK rights, and he was shocked that I refused to stop photographing the buildings (which I was doing legally.) He eventually conceded, but another time a UK officer did not concede and threatened to arrest me (again, both times were fully within the law.) There's something in the national DNA, I feel. Like I said, being compliant isn't inherently a good thing or a bad thing: but it does mean that stuff like this, which is pretty horrifying, will probably pass. I type this comment less than 100 miles from the UK, but even here in the Netherlands (although our government is occasionally very disrespectful of privacy) people are more likely to raise a fuss and stop something like this. Even in the US, politicians have to be a little bit more careful about their support of egregious surveillance methods: hide it in an agriculture bill, disguise it, publicly denounce the surveillance state, etc etc. But Theresa May literally said "we want to put huge restrictions on what people can post, share, and publish online" - direct quote - and nobody's protesting (except a handful of noble British anti-surveillance organizations fighting a losing battle.)

schoen 9y ago
> I was stopped by a police officer, and knew my UK rights, and he was shocked that I refused to stop photographing the buildings (which I was doing legally.) I have the impression that the differences you mention are real. But I often hear that the U.K. is more compliant in this sense than the U.S., yet there are lots of cases of police in the U.S. improperly telling people to stop photographing or recording something (often either buildings, infrastructure, or the police themselves). The police here are also often shocked when people don't comply with these orders, and may threaten to arrest people for noncompliance, even though the law is also almost always on the photographers' side. So I'm not sure your example directly proves your point about differences between countries. But maybe police in the Netherlands, at least, wouldn't usually behave this way. :-)
- owenversteeg 9y ago
  Oh, I'm almost certain that the cases are far fewer in America. I lived in the US for most of my life and I've taken tens of thousands of photographs there, some of those in places which are actually legitimately vital to national security. I've never been stopped by an officer (for photography at least) as far as I can remember. Meanwhile in the UK I've been stopped by officers multiple times. I think the reason why you hear about it more in the US is because it's rarer and thus more shocking. If I was improperly stopped from taking pictures by a police officer in the US I'd raise a giant fuss and contact the department and Tweet about it and all that. Meanwhile it has happened to me multiple times in the UK and I haven't raised a fuss at all aside from a mildly heated argument with the officers in question. It's the same with other things too: I've been within meters of a politically motivated execution, and I did nothing. That was in Iran though, and any efforts I would have made would simply put me next in line. Meanwhile, if a politically motivated execution was happening in America I would raise hell and I expect many other people would too. People's reactions to something are completely different depending on where that thing happens. Funny enough, I have been stopped for photographing things in the Netherlands at least one time that I can remember. The officers were a lot friendlier however, made small talk, and reminded me that my photographs were perfectly legal.
pessimizer 9y ago
The irresistible urge to form an orderly queue is a point of national pride, for the English at least.
hollander 9y ago
It's a guess, but I think the whole living-together-on-an-island can explain a lot. Maybe in the current world with cheap airplane tickets, a tunnel to Calais, and of course the whole internet thing and globalisation, it may look like that doesn't matter. But this is in the blood, in the culture, in the history of the British. It's what I often hear at least. Living on an island where it's difficult to escape makes it that you have to find a way to live together. That makes it more important to tolerate eachother, to live with eachother, and politeness is a way to do that. Compliance is a way of surviving if you cannot escape. I've heard that the Dutch are the least compliant. Well maybe the source is not reliable, the source being Marina Abramovic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marina_Abramovi%C4%87 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marina_Abramovi%C4%87), a performance artist who worked over the world as well as in Amsterdam, and said that the Dutch were the least cooperative during her performances. I don't know if that is a compliment, but being a "Hollander" I can relate to it.
- owenversteeg 9y ago
  > It's a guess, but I think the whole living-together-on-an-island can explain a lot. Hmm, it might. It definitely seems like a pretty compelling argument to me at least. And I definitely agree, compliance is in the blood, culture, and history of the British. At the same time I can think of some more noncomplaint island peoples. I was in Iceland two weeks ago and that comes to mind: they seemed roughly on par with the Dutch. I think living on an island is probably one important ingredient in British compliance. At the same time I think there are a lot of different ways to end up with a compliant population, for example the Southern US seems to be more compliant than the North.

schoen 9y ago

> I was stopped by a police officer, and knew my UK rights, and he was shocked that I refused to stop photographing the buildings (which I was doing legally.) I have the impression that the differences you mention are real. But I often hear that the U.K. is more compliant in this sense than the U.S., yet there are lots of cases of police in the U.S. improperly telling people to stop photographing or recording something (often either buildings, infrastructure, or the police themselves). The police here are also often shocked when people don't comply with these orders, and may threaten to arrest people for noncompliance, even though the law is also almost always on the photographers' side. So I'm not sure your example directly proves your point about differences between countries. But maybe police in the Netherlands, at least, wouldn't usually behave this way. :-)

owenversteeg 9y ago
Oh, I'm almost certain that the cases are far fewer in America. I lived in the US for most of my life and I've taken tens of thousands of photographs there, some of those in places which are actually legitimately vital to national security. I've never been stopped by an officer (for photography at least) as far as I can remember. Meanwhile in the UK I've been stopped by officers multiple times. I think the reason why you hear about it more in the US is because it's rarer and thus more shocking. If I was improperly stopped from taking pictures by a police officer in the US I'd raise a giant fuss and contact the department and Tweet about it and all that. Meanwhile it has happened to me multiple times in the UK and I haven't raised a fuss at all aside from a mildly heated argument with the officers in question. It's the same with other things too: I've been within meters of a politically motivated execution, and I did nothing. That was in Iran though, and any efforts I would have made would simply put me next in line. Meanwhile, if a politically motivated execution was happening in America I would raise hell and I expect many other people would too. People's reactions to something are completely different depending on where that thing happens. Funny enough, I have been stopped for photographing things in the Netherlands at least one time that I can remember. The officers were a lot friendlier however, made small talk, and reminded me that my photographs were perfectly legal.

pessimizer 9y ago

The irresistible urge to form an orderly queue is a point of national pride, for the English at least.

hollander 9y ago

It's a guess, but I think the whole living-together-on-an-island can explain a lot. Maybe in the current world with cheap airplane tickets, a tunnel to Calais, and of course the whole internet thing and globalisation, it may look like that doesn't matter. But this is in the blood, in the culture, in the history of the British. It's what I often hear at least. Living on an island where it's difficult to escape makes it that you have to find a way to live together. That makes it more important to tolerate eachother, to live with eachother, and politeness is a way to do that. Compliance is a way of surviving if you cannot escape. I've heard that the Dutch are the least compliant. Well maybe the source is not reliable, the source being Marina Abramovic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marina_Abramovi%C4%87 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marina_Abramovi%C4%87), a performance artist who worked over the world as well as in Amsterdam, and said that the Dutch were the least cooperative during her performances. I don't know if that is a compliment, but being a "Hollander" I can relate to it.

owenversteeg 9y ago
> It's a guess, but I think the whole living-together-on-an-island can explain a lot. Hmm, it might. It definitely seems like a pretty compelling argument to me at least. And I definitely agree, compliance is in the blood, culture, and history of the British. At the same time I can think of some more noncomplaint island peoples. I was in Iceland two weeks ago and that comes to mind: they seemed roughly on par with the Dutch. I think living on an island is probably one important ingredient in British compliance. At the same time I think there are a lot of different ways to end up with a compliant population, for example the Southern US seems to be more compliant than the North.