5 ms·

these people sometimes bother me because when they got lost or trapped, taxpayers then spend millions to save them.

Analemma_ 9y ago
I don't know what the policy of the Coast Guard is, but increasingly a lot of states have made it so you have to pay the cost of your rescue if it was due to gross negligence. A family friend is part of the Upper Valley Wilderness Rescue Team (the ones who'd be saving you if you got lost in the White Mountains in New Hampshire), and they have been sending bills to the clueless for a little while now (people who were prepared and just the victim of unfortunate circumstances do not pay). This guy in his microboat would probably qualify as a payer if he got in trouble.
- GuiA 9y ago
  How do you define gross negligence? This guy seems anything but. Unless the argument is that wanting to cross the atlantic itself is gross negligence, but that's slippery slope to "anything but staying home and watching TV like a good citizen is gross negligence".
  - fedesilva 9y ago
    Many people cross the Atlantic every year in relatively (not like this) small boats every year. There are common procedures and knowledge available to people that do that, see here for example: http://www.yachtingmonthly.com/archive/arc-safety-checklist-25183 http://www.yachtingmonthly.com/archive/arc-safety-checklist-... Examples of gross negligence: being dismasted in low or moderate wind conditions because lack of maintenance to the rigging and/or motor failing because of lack of a fuel filtering system, departing when conditions are obviously not favorable (wind against current in the Gulf Stream off the US coast). There is no such thing as a clear line but it can be established for each case I think.
leggomylibro 9y ago
FTA: "He set off from La Gomera in the Canary Islands on 6 April, but returned after concerns about his boat’s seaworthiness. He explains: “I wasn’t really in too much danger, [but] there was a weak point in the boat that was concerning me. The emergency floatation system component that was on the rudder assembly was getting hammered so hard in these really close together waves. The float was getting jammed upwards so fast and so often the boat’s movement couldn’t keep up. “It was the worst, most unpredictable and erratic conditions I have ever sailed in with that boat. When it started gusting 45 knots I decided that I shouldn’t keep going with such an obvious weak link.”" Actually, the boat sounds very cool. It's 5 feet deep, but sits low in the water and has extra storage; 40 gallons of water with pump-operated purification, and 6 months worth of food. I have to think it would have been worth it to go just a little bigger in order to have enough room to fully lie down, though.
nraynaud 9y ago
It's interesting because I live in a country where being rescued is free as a rule[1]. And I find it nice: I know that if shit happens in the mountains, the helicopter will come, no need to be rich to hike or sail. And I'm happy to be paying other people's rescue when they are in need. A couple friend of mine had to call a rescue team when their rope got tangled when repealing down a cliff, no need to feel bad. [1]doesn't apply to ski resorts
- StudentStuff 9y ago
  Lol, I know when I hiked into Canada, they were very clear that you should have your credit card in hand and ready to pay the $2k charge if they had to use a helicopter to get you out of there. Apparently they've had more than a few people ready to pay the parks service for said service when getting to the top of the pass! Everything else was included in the minimal day use fee, saw one guy take an abridged version of the hike (due to injury), whereby they covered the finger lakes on boat, and hiked by the short rapids in the slot valleys. On another note, Parker's Trail is horrible, and when they actually hike the Chilkoot trail they successfully picked the absolute shittiest of conditions (not quite snow, but a slushy, slippery mess). In the summer, it isn't terrible to boulder up, and I found it to be quite an enjoyable trip, got really lucky with some great views & conditions.
- ilanco 9y ago
  Which country is that? Does this rule apply to tourists as well?
  - nraynaud 9y ago
    France, and yes.
    - fian 9y ago
      France, like much of Europe, is well covered by towns and cities. So there is often not a great distance for emergency services to cover which means the cost of mounting a rescue will not be excessive. As a counter point, Australia is sparsely populated. Apart from the coastal cities it is often hundreds of kilometers between towns or road houses. So the cost of mounting a land rescue can get into the tens of thousands of dollars. Also there is a lot of ocean area for which Australia is the closest landmass. There have been numerous ocean rescues mounted from Australia for sailors competing in round the world races or record attempts, some of them soloists: http://www.nytimes.com/1997/01/11/world/australia-rescues-sailors-but-is-wincing-at-the-costs.html http://www.nytimes.com/1997/01/11/world/australia-rescues-sa... http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/family-cannot-afford-to-pay-back-teen-sailor-abby-sunderlands-rescue-costs-mother/news-story/471328db658e163b099684c848997591?sv=85861ad0308b920c053a5d5be0123e29 http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/family-cannot-afford-to-p... http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-03-19/south-african-men-rescued-from-stricken-jedi-1-yacht-off-wa/8367580 http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-03-19/south-african-men-resc... http://www.news.com.au/national/sailors-snapped-leg-forces-1m-rescue/news-story/1f21d0aec9f973d179969178a629d5d1 http://www.news.com.au/national/sailors-snapped-leg-forces-1... These rescues have cost hundreds to millions of dollars each and generally have been paid for by Australian tax payers as noted in some of the articles. So yes it is nice that you will be rescued. But these people all put themselves in a dangerous position for their own entertainment/ego and needed rescue at great expense to others. The millions that were spent for some of the rescues needed to be diverted from services/programs that would have benefited the taxpayers. The geographic and population distribution differences between countries means that some countries will end up with a larger bill than others for mounting such rescues. For this guy trying to prove something by sailing the smallest boat, if he can't take out "rescue" insurance, he should not go. Alternatively, he could also arrange for a support vessel to follow close by in case he needs assistance.
prodmerc 9y ago
Well, no one is paying millions, everyone is paying a dollar or 10. If you'd rather use that for a few drinks, go for it. I'll pay my taxes knowing that someone got cared for or saved, and that one day I might be the one needing that saving.

I don't know what the policy of the Coast Guard is, but increasingly a lot of states have made it so you have to pay the cost of your rescue if it was due to gross negligence. A family friend is part of the Upper Valley Wilderness Rescue Team (the ones who'd be saving you if you got lost in the White Mountains in New Hampshire), and they have been sending bills to the clueless for a little while now (people who were prepared and just the victim of unfortunate circumstances do not pay). This guy in his microboat would probably qualify as a payer if he got in trouble.

GuiA 9y ago
How do you define gross negligence? This guy seems anything but. Unless the argument is that wanting to cross the atlantic itself is gross negligence, but that's slippery slope to "anything but staying home and watching TV like a good citizen is gross negligence".
- fedesilva 9y ago
  Many people cross the Atlantic every year in relatively (not like this) small boats every year. There are common procedures and knowledge available to people that do that, see here for example: http://www.yachtingmonthly.com/archive/arc-safety-checklist-25183 http://www.yachtingmonthly.com/archive/arc-safety-checklist-... Examples of gross negligence: being dismasted in low or moderate wind conditions because lack of maintenance to the rigging and/or motor failing because of lack of a fuel filtering system, departing when conditions are obviously not favorable (wind against current in the Gulf Stream off the US coast). There is no such thing as a clear line but it can be established for each case I think.

leggomylibro 9y ago

FTA: "He set off from La Gomera in the Canary Islands on 6 April, but returned after concerns about his boat’s seaworthiness. He explains: “I wasn’t really in too much danger, [but] there was a weak point in the boat that was concerning me. The emergency floatation system component that was on the rudder assembly was getting hammered so hard in these really close together waves. The float was getting jammed upwards so fast and so often the boat’s movement couldn’t keep up. “It was the worst, most unpredictable and erratic conditions I have ever sailed in with that boat. When it started gusting 45 knots I decided that I shouldn’t keep going with such an obvious weak link.”" Actually, the boat sounds very cool. It's 5 feet deep, but sits low in the water and has extra storage; 40 gallons of water with pump-operated purification, and 6 months worth of food. I have to think it would have been worth it to go just a little bigger in order to have enough room to fully lie down, though.

nraynaud 9y ago

It's interesting because I live in a country where being rescued is free as a rule[1]. And I find it nice: I know that if shit happens in the mountains, the helicopter will come, no need to be rich to hike or sail. And I'm happy to be paying other people's rescue when they are in need. A couple friend of mine had to call a rescue team when their rope got tangled when repealing down a cliff, no need to feel bad. [1]doesn't apply to ski resorts

StudentStuff 9y ago
Lol, I know when I hiked into Canada, they were very clear that you should have your credit card in hand and ready to pay the $2k charge if they had to use a helicopter to get you out of there. Apparently they've had more than a few people ready to pay the parks service for said service when getting to the top of the pass! Everything else was included in the minimal day use fee, saw one guy take an abridged version of the hike (due to injury), whereby they covered the finger lakes on boat, and hiked by the short rapids in the slot valleys. On another note, Parker's Trail is horrible, and when they actually hike the Chilkoot trail they successfully picked the absolute shittiest of conditions (not quite snow, but a slushy, slippery mess). In the summer, it isn't terrible to boulder up, and I found it to be quite an enjoyable trip, got really lucky with some great views & conditions.
ilanco 9y ago
Which country is that? Does this rule apply to tourists as well?
- nraynaud 9y ago
  France, and yes.
  - fian 9y ago
    France, like much of Europe, is well covered by towns and cities. So there is often not a great distance for emergency services to cover which means the cost of mounting a rescue will not be excessive. As a counter point, Australia is sparsely populated. Apart from the coastal cities it is often hundreds of kilometers between towns or road houses. So the cost of mounting a land rescue can get into the tens of thousands of dollars. Also there is a lot of ocean area for which Australia is the closest landmass. There have been numerous ocean rescues mounted from Australia for sailors competing in round the world races or record attempts, some of them soloists: http://www.nytimes.com/1997/01/11/world/australia-rescues-sailors-but-is-wincing-at-the-costs.html http://www.nytimes.com/1997/01/11/world/australia-rescues-sa... http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/family-cannot-afford-to-pay-back-teen-sailor-abby-sunderlands-rescue-costs-mother/news-story/471328db658e163b099684c848997591?sv=85861ad0308b920c053a5d5be0123e29 http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/family-cannot-afford-to-p... http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-03-19/south-african-men-rescued-from-stricken-jedi-1-yacht-off-wa/8367580 http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-03-19/south-african-men-resc... http://www.news.com.au/national/sailors-snapped-leg-forces-1m-rescue/news-story/1f21d0aec9f973d179969178a629d5d1 http://www.news.com.au/national/sailors-snapped-leg-forces-1... These rescues have cost hundreds to millions of dollars each and generally have been paid for by Australian tax payers as noted in some of the articles. So yes it is nice that you will be rescued. But these people all put themselves in a dangerous position for their own entertainment/ego and needed rescue at great expense to others. The millions that were spent for some of the rescues needed to be diverted from services/programs that would have benefited the taxpayers. The geographic and population distribution differences between countries means that some countries will end up with a larger bill than others for mounting such rescues. For this guy trying to prove something by sailing the smallest boat, if he can't take out "rescue" insurance, he should not go. Alternatively, he could also arrange for a support vessel to follow close by in case he needs assistance.

prodmerc 9y ago

Well, no one is paying millions, everyone is paying a dollar or 10. If you'd rather use that for a few drinks, go for it. I'll pay my taxes knowing that someone got cared for or saved, and that one day I might be the one needing that saving.