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> pretty low on the list of countries that take great care with environmental concerns The truth is not as simple as the western media makes it out to be. Bet

> pretty low on the list of countries that take great care with environmental concerns The truth is not as simple as the western media makes it out to be. Between the US and China there are more than 40 countries in CO2 emissions per capita. In other words, one of the least responsible countries is the US (If you took a province of China with 200 million inhabitants, it would be an extremely responsible country compared to a country of similar size. Per capita, it sits right next to Iceland at around 6 tonnes of CO2/person)[0] China is also the number one investor in renewable energy (more than double what the US is investing). Per capita, they are similar players with the US ahead. [1] So it all depends on how you slice your data. Objectively it's easy to say that China is one of the most responsible countries in terms of global warming. Now whether it's just a matter of poverty and whether their growth strategy involves "de-carbonizing" de economy ... it's hard to say. However, taping the clathrates without capture sounds like sucide. [0] http://cotap.org/per-capita-carbon-co2-emissions-by-country http://cotap.org/per-capita-carbon-co2-emissions-by-country [1] http://www.businessinsider.com/top-renewable-energy-investments-by-country-2016-3/ http://www.businessinsider.com/top-renewable-energy-investme...

dogma1138 9y ago
China is still a developing country, there are more people in China that do not have access to electricity or then entire population of many of those 40 or so countries between it and the US on that list. China has an energy problem if it wants to continue to grow it needs to increase its energy production by a steep factor. It has a growing working and middle class that wants refrigerators and air conditioners. It still has half a million households had are not connected to electricity and many many more that are not connected to other utilities such as sewage. China is investing in every energy solution it can because it's in a desperate need of more juice.
aianus 9y ago
> If you took a province of China with 200 million inhabitants, it would be an extremely responsible country compared to a country of similar size. Having such an enormous population and population density relative to Western countries is irresponsible. I don't agree that you can just divide by population and say they're fine.
- dmuch 9y ago
  huh? The question is whether a group's behavior is irresponsible. Are you saying that merely existing is irresponsible? And if so what exactly follows from that, China already has relatively low birth rate...
- macmacaka 9y ago
  I don't get your point. Who are referring to are not being responsible here? The Chinese government or the Chinese people? If the former, they installed one-child policy with the sole purpose of population restriction, sounds pretty "responsible" to me. If the latter, are you suggesting as a people, maybe the Chinese shouldn't breed as many, to, say, leave space for other people?
  - elefanten 9y ago
    Yes, it's not particularly productive to factor China's large population into comparisons of current responsibility. But GP has a valid point in pointing out that it's not reasonable to compare the entirety of a rich developed country to a low-density slice of China, which is very likely using fewer resources because of scarcity and underdevelopment rather than greater than average responsibility.
  - aianus 9y ago
    If I choose to drive 1000km that I don't have to drive in a 35mpg Prius I am not more environmentally conscious than someone who drives 200km in a 10mpg Hummer. Similarly if I have 10 kids instead of 2. Anyways, I should have said "was irresponsible" since those decisions were made by their ancestors a while back and so there's not much more they can do about it now.
    - justicezyx 9y ago
      The analog is pretty unreasonable. It sounds like 1000km Prius driver has an option to drive only 200km. But they may not have. I.e. a poor lower middle class worker needs to drive everyday for work, while a millionare might choose to stay at home being environmental friendly. But he might be using too much electricity... Plus, you cannot just bash Chinese government of killing baby, while at the same time calling them environmental irresponsible...
jvm 9y ago
China is 175th in GDP per ton of emissions: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_ratio_of_GDP_to_carbon_dioxide_emissions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_ratio_of_... US is 80th, not great but there's really no comparison to Chian. For rich country comparison, UK is 22nd and France is 9th.
- badosu 9y ago
  > US is 80th, not great but there's really no comparison to Chian. This is true, but one should take into account that US's and most of the developed world economy has shifted into services and intellectual or branding schemes, exporting the dirty job of manufacturing to China. It would be really surprising if that was not the case.
  - mistermann 9y ago
    Very good point, and considering China is basically the manufacturing arm of almost every western country, any list "ranking" countries is useless propaganda. Well, not useless I guess, considering it is propaganda.

dogma1138 9y ago

China is still a developing country, there are more people in China that do not have access to electricity or then entire population of many of those 40 or so countries between it and the US on that list. China has an energy problem if it wants to continue to grow it needs to increase its energy production by a steep factor. It has a growing working and middle class that wants refrigerators and air conditioners. It still has half a million households had are not connected to electricity and many many more that are not connected to other utilities such as sewage. China is investing in every energy solution it can because it's in a desperate need of more juice.

aianus 9y ago

> If you took a province of China with 200 million inhabitants, it would be an extremely responsible country compared to a country of similar size. Having such an enormous population and population density relative to Western countries is irresponsible. I don't agree that you can just divide by population and say they're fine.

dmuch 9y ago
huh? The question is whether a group's behavior is irresponsible. Are you saying that merely existing is irresponsible? And if so what exactly follows from that, China already has relatively low birth rate...
macmacaka 9y ago
I don't get your point. Who are referring to are not being responsible here? The Chinese government or the Chinese people? If the former, they installed one-child policy with the sole purpose of population restriction, sounds pretty "responsible" to me. If the latter, are you suggesting as a people, maybe the Chinese shouldn't breed as many, to, say, leave space for other people?
- elefanten 9y ago
  Yes, it's not particularly productive to factor China's large population into comparisons of current responsibility. But GP has a valid point in pointing out that it's not reasonable to compare the entirety of a rich developed country to a low-density slice of China, which is very likely using fewer resources because of scarcity and underdevelopment rather than greater than average responsibility.
- aianus 9y ago
  If I choose to drive 1000km that I don't have to drive in a 35mpg Prius I am not more environmentally conscious than someone who drives 200km in a 10mpg Hummer. Similarly if I have 10 kids instead of 2. Anyways, I should have said "was irresponsible" since those decisions were made by their ancestors a while back and so there's not much more they can do about it now.
  - justicezyx 9y ago
    The analog is pretty unreasonable. It sounds like 1000km Prius driver has an option to drive only 200km. But they may not have. I.e. a poor lower middle class worker needs to drive everyday for work, while a millionare might choose to stay at home being environmental friendly. But he might be using too much electricity... Plus, you cannot just bash Chinese government of killing baby, while at the same time calling them environmental irresponsible...

jvm 9y ago

China is 175th in GDP per ton of emissions: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_ratio_of_GDP_to_carbon_dioxide_emissions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_ratio_of_... US is 80th, not great but there's really no comparison to Chian. For rich country comparison, UK is 22nd and France is 9th.

badosu 9y ago
> US is 80th, not great but there's really no comparison to Chian. This is true, but one should take into account that US's and most of the developed world economy has shifted into services and intellectual or branding schemes, exporting the dirty job of manufacturing to China. It would be really surprising if that was not the case.
- mistermann 9y ago
  Very good point, and considering China is basically the manufacturing arm of almost every western country, any list "ranking" countries is useless propaganda. Well, not useless I guess, considering it is propaganda.