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The real concern here is that the country that's furthest along in extracting the methane is also pretty low on the list of countries that take great care with

The real concern here is that the country that's furthest along in extracting the methane is also pretty low on the list of countries that take great care with environmental concerns. As the article points out, the biggest danger with this as a NG source is that a lot of methane can escape before you've extracted it, and the methane that escapes is a huge concern as a greenhouse gas.

stcredzero 9y ago
Tom Clancy movie plot: Apocalyptic extremist group gets hold of a nuclear weapon and plots to use it to release a large amount of methane. However, it doesn't stop there. They also ignite the methane to create an ongoing reaction heat the hydrate deposit to release additional billions of tons of methane. Slightly more sophisticated movie plot: Market forces accomplish basically the same thing over the period of a few decades, which still results in a runaway positive feedback loop causing more methane hydrates to release, making it warmer, etc.
- dharma1 9y ago
  the second plot is much more likely to happen, unfortunately problems spanning a few decades don't make great movies or seem to be addressable by humans generally
- wohlergehen 9y ago
  "The Swarm" by Frank Schätzing has a semi-related plot circling around the clathrate gun hypothesis.
alphydan 9y ago
> pretty low on the list of countries that take great care with environmental concerns The truth is not as simple as the western media makes it out to be. Between the US and China there are more than 40 countries in CO2 emissions per capita. In other words, one of the least responsible countries is the US (If you took a province of China with 200 million inhabitants, it would be an extremely responsible country compared to a country of similar size. Per capita, it sits right next to Iceland at around 6 tonnes of CO2/person)[0] China is also the number one investor in renewable energy (more than double what the US is investing). Per capita, they are similar players with the US ahead. [1] So it all depends on how you slice your data. Objectively it's easy to say that China is one of the most responsible countries in terms of global warming. Now whether it's just a matter of poverty and whether their growth strategy involves "de-carbonizing" de economy ... it's hard to say. However, taping the clathrates without capture sounds like sucide. [0] http://cotap.org/per-capita-carbon-co2-emissions-by-country http://cotap.org/per-capita-carbon-co2-emissions-by-country [1] http://www.businessinsider.com/top-renewable-energy-investments-by-country-2016-3/ http://www.businessinsider.com/top-renewable-energy-investme...
- dogma1138 9y ago
  China is still a developing country, there are more people in China that do not have access to electricity or then entire population of many of those 40 or so countries between it and the US on that list. China has an energy problem if it wants to continue to grow it needs to increase its energy production by a steep factor. It has a growing working and middle class that wants refrigerators and air conditioners. It still has half a million households had are not connected to electricity and many many more that are not connected to other utilities such as sewage. China is investing in every energy solution it can because it's in a desperate need of more juice.
- aianus 9y ago
  > If you took a province of China with 200 million inhabitants, it would be an extremely responsible country compared to a country of similar size. Having such an enormous population and population density relative to Western countries is irresponsible. I don't agree that you can just divide by population and say they're fine.
  - dmuch 9y ago
    huh? The question is whether a group's behavior is irresponsible. Are you saying that merely existing is irresponsible? And if so what exactly follows from that, China already has relatively low birth rate...
  - macmacaka 9y ago
    I don't get your point. Who are referring to are not being responsible here? The Chinese government or the Chinese people? If the former, they installed one-child policy with the sole purpose of population restriction, sounds pretty "responsible" to me. If the latter, are you suggesting as a people, maybe the Chinese shouldn't breed as many, to, say, leave space for other people?
    - elefanten 9y ago
      Yes, it's not particularly productive to factor China's large population into comparisons of current responsibility. But GP has a valid point in pointing out that it's not reasonable to compare the entirety of a rich developed country to a low-density slice of China, which is very likely using fewer resources because of scarcity and underdevelopment rather than greater than average responsibility.
badosu 9y ago
> The real concern here is that the country that's furthest along in extracting the methane is also pretty low on the list of countries that take great care with environmental concerns. This narrative is getting more obsolete each day. Compare the recent changes in the Trump administration regarding climate change and environmental agencies with this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_energy_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_energy_in_China Edit (for context, 2 days ago Trump said this): I've loosened up the strangling environmental chains wrapped around our country and our economy, chains so tight that you couldn't do anything, that jobs were going down, we were losing business. We are loosening it up,...
vkou 9y ago
> The real concern here is that the country that's furthest along in extracting the methane is also pretty low on the list of countries that take great care with environmental concerns. As a westerner, you can only enjoy your 'environmentally-friendly' (It's really not) lifestyle, because you outsource all your manufacturing pollution to China. If all the stuff you used were made domestically, your nation's carbon footprint would increase - massively. And China's would decrease. The atmosphere doesn't care about these accounting tricks, though.

stcredzero 9y ago

Tom Clancy movie plot: Apocalyptic extremist group gets hold of a nuclear weapon and plots to use it to release a large amount of methane. However, it doesn't stop there. They also ignite the methane to create an ongoing reaction heat the hydrate deposit to release additional billions of tons of methane. Slightly more sophisticated movie plot: Market forces accomplish basically the same thing over the period of a few decades, which still results in a runaway positive feedback loop causing more methane hydrates to release, making it warmer, etc.

dharma1 9y ago
the second plot is much more likely to happen, unfortunately problems spanning a few decades don't make great movies or seem to be addressable by humans generally
wohlergehen 9y ago
"The Swarm" by Frank Schätzing has a semi-related plot circling around the clathrate gun hypothesis.

alphydan 9y ago

> pretty low on the list of countries that take great care with environmental concerns The truth is not as simple as the western media makes it out to be. Between the US and China there are more than 40 countries in CO2 emissions per capita. In other words, one of the least responsible countries is the US (If you took a province of China with 200 million inhabitants, it would be an extremely responsible country compared to a country of similar size. Per capita, it sits right next to Iceland at around 6 tonnes of CO2/person)[0] China is also the number one investor in renewable energy (more than double what the US is investing). Per capita, they are similar players with the US ahead. [1] So it all depends on how you slice your data. Objectively it's easy to say that China is one of the most responsible countries in terms of global warming. Now whether it's just a matter of poverty and whether their growth strategy involves "de-carbonizing" de economy ... it's hard to say. However, taping the clathrates without capture sounds like sucide. [0] http://cotap.org/per-capita-carbon-co2-emissions-by-country http://cotap.org/per-capita-carbon-co2-emissions-by-country [1] http://www.businessinsider.com/top-renewable-energy-investments-by-country-2016-3/ http://www.businessinsider.com/top-renewable-energy-investme...

dogma1138 9y ago
China is still a developing country, there are more people in China that do not have access to electricity or then entire population of many of those 40 or so countries between it and the US on that list. China has an energy problem if it wants to continue to grow it needs to increase its energy production by a steep factor. It has a growing working and middle class that wants refrigerators and air conditioners. It still has half a million households had are not connected to electricity and many many more that are not connected to other utilities such as sewage. China is investing in every energy solution it can because it's in a desperate need of more juice.
aianus 9y ago
> If you took a province of China with 200 million inhabitants, it would be an extremely responsible country compared to a country of similar size. Having such an enormous population and population density relative to Western countries is irresponsible. I don't agree that you can just divide by population and say they're fine.
- dmuch 9y ago
  huh? The question is whether a group's behavior is irresponsible. Are you saying that merely existing is irresponsible? And if so what exactly follows from that, China already has relatively low birth rate...
- macmacaka 9y ago
  I don't get your point. Who are referring to are not being responsible here? The Chinese government or the Chinese people? If the former, they installed one-child policy with the sole purpose of population restriction, sounds pretty "responsible" to me. If the latter, are you suggesting as a people, maybe the Chinese shouldn't breed as many, to, say, leave space for other people?
  - elefanten 9y ago
    Yes, it's not particularly productive to factor China's large population into comparisons of current responsibility. But GP has a valid point in pointing out that it's not reasonable to compare the entirety of a rich developed country to a low-density slice of China, which is very likely using fewer resources because of scarcity and underdevelopment rather than greater than average responsibility.

badosu 9y ago

> The real concern here is that the country that's furthest along in extracting the methane is also pretty low on the list of countries that take great care with environmental concerns. This narrative is getting more obsolete each day. Compare the recent changes in the Trump administration regarding climate change and environmental agencies with this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_energy_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_energy_in_China Edit (for context, 2 days ago Trump said this): I've loosened up the strangling environmental chains wrapped around our country and our economy, chains so tight that you couldn't do anything, that jobs were going down, we were losing business. We are loosening it up,...

vkou 9y ago

> The real concern here is that the country that's furthest along in extracting the methane is also pretty low on the list of countries that take great care with environmental concerns. As a westerner, you can only enjoy your 'environmentally-friendly' (It's really not) lifestyle, because you outsource all your manufacturing pollution to China. If all the stuff you used were made domestically, your nation's carbon footprint would increase - massively. And China's would decrease. The atmosphere doesn't care about these accounting tricks, though.