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I completely agree that there is a ruling class, and that they extract an obscene amount of rent just because they can. I also happen to think they create a ton

by psyc 9y ago

I completely agree that there is a ruling class, and that they extract an obscene amount of rent just because they can. I also happen to think they create a ton of value. I just don't believe that justifies them making us 'human capital'.

jazzyk 9y ago
Explain to me the "value" of Goldman Sachs telling their customers to buy derivatives, while shorting them at the same time. Pretty please.
- Karunamon 9y ago
  One, or even many examples of bad behavior does not invalidate the general argument of the wealthy creating value. Don't forget you're on a site owned by wealthy people whose day job is giving money to other people to bootstrap their companies. You don't get much more creating value than that.
  - sambull 9y ago
    Creating that value destroys the earth.
  - Pica_soO 9y ago
    Beggars cant be choosers. You forgot to demonize the opposition as lazy welfare riders. :D To add a little meat to this vampire of a political exchange. Nobody is interested in the usual defense mechanisms.. lets open the hard shell and look at the heart. And here it is: "I know you are right, but i have just so much invested into the current system, and can with my family at debt-gunpoint mount no enthusiasm as i could once when i was a tweenager. Why should i throw my hat in a ring, who as history shows often tramples hats and wearers on both sides? And how many couch revolutionary's are there, who wave the banner on the internet, but would throw a fit, if somebody would occupy their parking lot in real life. "
  - jazzyk 9y ago
    A few issues though: - more and more capital is being tied up in parasitic activity (encouraged by monetary and fiscal policies), instead of being invested in startups, infrastructure, etc. - all profits/capital gains are distributed to capital holders (out of proportion)
- vostok 9y ago
  When Goldman trades an OTC derivative with you, they're necessarily taking the other side. The value is that you transfer risk to Goldman at a price that you think is too low and that Goldman thinks is too high. Don't get me wrong, I'm probably more anti bank than the average HNer, but this particular criticism is nonsense.
- cat199 9y ago
  increasing market liquidity, sheesh
usmeteora 9y ago
What about the fact that the average infiltration of technology for a company to utilize is higher than the 90s, so low to average skill, and even some high skill jobs are being exported to the billions of people willing to do the job for a fraction of the price. Maybe just as many or more people are being employed just not in the U.S., and the pays of the people working overseas are lower relative to U.S. wages, but higher relative to the wages offered in the location of that persons job? I feel like people are looking at the U.S. exclusively but in reality since the 90s we have to consider the other countries on this planet, as an average to normal way of utilizing job allocation resourcing as opposed to it just being large corporations that do this like in the 90s. I'm not saying this method is overall good or stating opinions or whether i think its "right" or "wrong" as opposed to economics and how things have always worked , but it is a fact thats happening. Theres 400,000 people in China who have Engineering degrees or otherwise niche technical skill that are unemployed, and another 400k in the pipeline in Asia that are 12 yrs old taking Calculus and becoming trilingual. I always wonder why we don't wonder why the average highschool student in the average city in the U.S. is less valuable than the average highschool student in the average city in Asia or India, instead of assuming the only reason we don't have the jobs we feel entitled to is because rich people are taking it away from us, when in reality theres really qualified hardworking people all around the world who would benefit from a fraction of the pay provided by jobs we had previous relative to the current living conditions. The current living conditions being 400k unemployed Engineers and tech/manufactoring workers in Asia. outside of simply being American, why are we entitled to jobs more than them, if theres a limited amount of jobs, and they are willing to do it for less because its better than Having a Masters Degree in Engineering and being homeless?
coldtea 9y ago
>I also happen to think they create a ton of value. That others couldn't? You don't need to be ruling or vampire to create value. Just to be innovative.
- psyc 9y ago
  "The people who rule create a lot of value" not "We need exploitative rulers in order to create that value"

by psyc 9y ago

jazzyk 9y ago

Explain to me the "value" of Goldman Sachs telling their customers to buy derivatives, while shorting them at the same time. Pretty please.

Karunamon 9y ago
One, or even many examples of bad behavior does not invalidate the general argument of the wealthy creating value. Don't forget you're on a site owned by wealthy people whose day job is giving money to other people to bootstrap their companies. You don't get much more creating value than that.
- sambull 9y ago
  Creating that value destroys the earth.
- Pica_soO 9y ago
  Beggars cant be choosers. You forgot to demonize the opposition as lazy welfare riders. :D To add a little meat to this vampire of a political exchange. Nobody is interested in the usual defense mechanisms.. lets open the hard shell and look at the heart. And here it is: "I know you are right, but i have just so much invested into the current system, and can with my family at debt-gunpoint mount no enthusiasm as i could once when i was a tweenager. Why should i throw my hat in a ring, who as history shows often tramples hats and wearers on both sides? And how many couch revolutionary's are there, who wave the banner on the internet, but would throw a fit, if somebody would occupy their parking lot in real life. "
- jazzyk 9y ago
  A few issues though: - more and more capital is being tied up in parasitic activity (encouraged by monetary and fiscal policies), instead of being invested in startups, infrastructure, etc. - all profits/capital gains are distributed to capital holders (out of proportion)
vostok 9y ago
When Goldman trades an OTC derivative with you, they're necessarily taking the other side. The value is that you transfer risk to Goldman at a price that you think is too low and that Goldman thinks is too high. Don't get me wrong, I'm probably more anti bank than the average HNer, but this particular criticism is nonsense.
cat199 9y ago
increasing market liquidity, sheesh

usmeteora 9y ago

What about the fact that the average infiltration of technology for a company to utilize is higher than the 90s, so low to average skill, and even some high skill jobs are being exported to the billions of people willing to do the job for a fraction of the price. Maybe just as many or more people are being employed just not in the U.S., and the pays of the people working overseas are lower relative to U.S. wages, but higher relative to the wages offered in the location of that persons job? I feel like people are looking at the U.S. exclusively but in reality since the 90s we have to consider the other countries on this planet, as an average to normal way of utilizing job allocation resourcing as opposed to it just being large corporations that do this like in the 90s. I'm not saying this method is overall good or stating opinions or whether i think its "right" or "wrong" as opposed to economics and how things have always worked , but it is a fact thats happening. Theres 400,000 people in China who have Engineering degrees or otherwise niche technical skill that are unemployed, and another 400k in the pipeline in Asia that are 12 yrs old taking Calculus and becoming trilingual. I always wonder why we don't wonder why the average highschool student in the average city in the U.S. is less valuable than the average highschool student in the average city in Asia or India, instead of assuming the only reason we don't have the jobs we feel entitled to is because rich people are taking it away from us, when in reality theres really qualified hardworking people all around the world who would benefit from a fraction of the pay provided by jobs we had previous relative to the current living conditions. The current living conditions being 400k unemployed Engineers and tech/manufactoring workers in Asia. outside of simply being American, why are we entitled to jobs more than them, if theres a limited amount of jobs, and they are willing to do it for less because its better than Having a Masters Degree in Engineering and being homeless?

coldtea 9y ago

>I also happen to think they create a ton of value. That others couldn't? You don't need to be ruling or vampire to create value. Just to be innovative.

psyc 9y ago
"The people who rule create a lot of value" not "We need exploitative rulers in order to create that value"