8 ms·

This is probably pop psychology but it always struck me that if you legalize marijuana you go a long way to solving the problem. My thoughts are... 1. It is re

by throwaway2016a 9y ago

This is probably pop psychology but it always struck me that if you legalize marijuana you go a long way to solving the problem. My thoughts are... 1. It is reportedly a better pain killer in some cases than opioids so it keeps people off of the prescription opioids 2. It is nowhere near as addictive (possibly not addictive at all) 3. When people are already criminals (because they smoke weed) I think they are more likely to say "screw it" and try a harder drug. In the vein of, "I'm already doing something I can go to jail for, what's one more thing?" Legalizing keeps people out of the criminal class (increases barrier of entry to it) I'm actually for legalizing all drugs like several other posters but I don't think society is ready for that. I got in a argument with a close relative (a retired police officer) and another close relative (a doctor) about this on Easter. There arguments were entirely based on emotion and lot so logical fallacies. And understandably, they have both seen the darkest sides of what drugs can do. But criminalizing doesn't help those people.

graphitezepp 9y ago
I am pretty much with you. To add, 1. As far as I know, it doesn't actually kill pain, people just report that they no longer are bothered by the pain, or able to ignore it and still function. Which is probably better. 2. Fairly sure its not addictive at all in the pharmaceutical sense, and quite positive it can be in the way say World of Warcraft or other entertainment can be. 3. I actually buy the "gateway theory", but only because of this. Opposition seems to be the result of habit and years of ascribing negative virtue to recreational drug use (probably discounting alcohol cause cognitive dissonance).
- posterboy 9y ago
  1. How can one still function if you don't care about most basic emotions like pain? Trickquestion, one can't.
pavel_lishin 9y ago
> I'm actually for legalizing all drugs like several other posters but I don't think society is ready for that. If society isn't ready for that, why are you for it? (fwiw, I'm with you on marijuana, and hope to see the day when it's as legal as cigarettes - but people have been optimistic about marijuana for decades :/)
- Zak 9y ago
  > If society isn't ready for that, why are you for it? Not OP, but I think this means that it isn't a mainstream enough idea to get traction, and that it might be political suicide for an elected official to suggest it, not that society is ill-equipped to handle it if it did happen. I share this position. I think it's a good idea to legalize most drugs, but I think actively working toward legalizing drugs other than marijuana today would not get much in the way of results.
  - throwaway2016a 9y ago
    Thank you, yes this is exactly what I meant.
- senorjazz 9y ago
  >>why are you for it? Because there is no other solution. None. The drug war has been a complete and utter failure from the viewpoint of society (those who have profited may disagree, but I hope we can agree their views can be ignored). IT has ruined lives, brought misery and suffering to many, all but destroyed some countries, helped wars continue long after they would have otherwise, unfairly targeted minorities. And for what gains? None, absolutely nothing. Drugs are cheaper, purer and more available than ever. That is all the billions if not trillions of $ has achieved.
  - pavel_lishin 9y ago
    Ending the War on Drugs is not the same thing as legalizing all drugs. There are ways to fight addiction to things like methamphetamines and heroin without declaring all victims as the enemy. We should absolutely change how we deal with drugs and addition, but I'm not convinced that straight legalizing things like meth is the right approach, either.
- stronglikedan 9y ago
  Can't speak for OP, but in a more general sense, society as a whole will never be ready for some things that some individuals are for. That's why we (America) are a nation of laws, not of man. There will always be someone who doesn't like you, or what you do, or what you stand for, simply because it's all subjective.
slapshot 9y ago
> if you legalize marijuana you go a long way to solving the problem Well, Colorado tried that. Recreational weed has been fully legal in Colorado since January 1, 2014. You can walk down any major street in Denver or Boulder and pass multiple outlets selling marijuana. And they've sold lots of it, according to the tax receipts raised. The result has not been the sudden reversal of opioid addiction that you had hoped for. In 2015, opioid overdoses in Colorado continued to increase at the same rate as prior to legalization of marijuana. That year, opioid overdoses killed more Coloradans than homicide. [0] In 2016, the total number of opioid deaths dropped 6%, but the number of heroin overdoses continued to increase. [1] Personal experience in Portland Oregon suggests that in that city, legal marijuana has not made a dent in the meth and heroin issues that are still affecting the city. Maybe recreational marijuana laws have helped. Nothing in this data can disprove that maybe more people would have died without it. But it hasn't been a magic bullet. It hasn't yet gone "a long way to" solving the problem of heroin overuse. [FWIW, I'm in favor of recreational marijuana legalization, but the problems of heroin have different roots and we can't expect legal marijuana to immediately solve those issues.] [0] http://www.denverpost.com/2017/01/03/colorado-opioid-heroin-deaths-outnumbered-homicides/ http://www.denverpost.com/2017/01/03/colorado-opioid-heroin-... [1] http://www.denverpost.com/2017/03/07/colorado-opioid-heroin-deaths/ http://www.denverpost.com/2017/03/07/colorado-opioid-heroin-...
- ska 9y ago
  It will be interesting to see if this eventually puts a dent in the number of new opioid addictions - but that is a very different thing than addressing current addictions and/or transference from prescriptions to street drugs. I suspect it will be about a decade before any really good analysis can be done on that aspect.
- rch 9y ago
  I wouldn't take issue with your overall point, but the headline in your second link contradicts the article: As prescription opioid deaths drop 6 percent in Colorado, heroin deaths rise 23 percent vs. Overall, the total number of opiate deaths — meaning deaths from both prescription painkillers like fentanyl or from illegal opiates like heroin — fell by about 6 percent, from 472 deaths in 2015 to 442 deaths in 2016.
SCAQTony 9y ago
Pot would alleviate much of the heroin problem but with great advantages comes equal disadvantages. I suspect we will see these issues soon. Point number two: Marijuana is addictive and individuals with marijuana addiction entering voluntary rehab is increasing:(https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2797098/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2797098/) Theory: The reason one does not get physical withdraws is that it is oil based, stored in the fat and slowly dissipates in about 2-weeks or so whereas heroin is water soluble and leaves the body within 24-hours...
- ska 9y ago
  equal disadvantages Are you suggesting negative effects of marijuana usage are comparable to that of opioids? That really doesn't match any of the research I know of.
- senorjazz 9y ago
  Cannabis addiction (and I agree it exists) is not in the same league as opioid addiction. Heavy smokers may feel different when stopping, may have a few sleepless nights due to dreams returning, may be irritable, feel bored, but it is not at all comparable to those coming off a heavy opioid addiction. There is no equal disadvantage. If all heroin addicts were to magically over night turn into cannabis addicts and no longer be heroin addicts there will be many advantages and next to no disadvantages. Crime will go down. They will become employable, they will be able to lead "normal" lives. Disadvantages? I am not really thinking of any, let alone any that are equal
  - eternalvision 9y ago
    Marijuana absolutely can and does cause far more significant withdrawal than just a few sleepless nights. Under certain circumstances, the withdrawal can persist for much, much longer. It's irresponsible to assume that marijuana is harmless and non-addictive or only mildly addictive, and too easy to justify as being benign, when juxtaposed wth the withdrawal process of harder drugs.
    - 9y ago
senorjazz 9y ago
> 1. It is reportedly a better pain killer in some cases than opioids so it keeps people off of the prescription opioids No it isn't and no it won't. If you have serious pain issues, then cannabis will not help at all. If you are just referring to a slight ache in your back in the morning, ok there is some research (clinical and anecdotal) that cannabis can be useful as as anti inflammatory. But you should not be getting opiods for this anyway. Part of the problem IMO based on speaking to various people from various countries, the US is just far too happy to prescribe strong medication (generalisation I know but still) whereas for the same ailments in other countries you would get nothing. Whether this is do to the profitization of the US health care system, or whether when you are paying as much as people in the US are you want to feel like you are getting something in return. To be told, do a few stretches, take a parecetamol (tylenol?) may not seem like good value for money, even if it is the better advice (I have seen similar behaviour in some other countries where health care if more privatised)
- exclusiv 9y ago
  A friend of mine gave her mother a lot of edibles that she made from marijuana she grew when she was suffering through cancer and in a lot of pain. Apparently she was happy until she passed. She had tried chemo at one point and had been miserable of course. My grandma has arthritis and a lot of back pain and the doctor gave her morphine. I doubt anything is better than that but it does seem overly excessive, although stretches and tylenol as you suggest is definitely too weak for her. I think there's a really nice place for marijuana as a pain medication.
  - Kalium 9y ago
    You're absolutely right! Marijuana has a very useful place as one tool among many for palliative care. I believe parent may be suggesting that marijuana should not be regarded as a universal substitute for any and all use palliative uses of opiates.
- Larrikin 9y ago
  >Part of the problem IMO based on speaking to various people from various countries, the US is just far too happy to prescribe strong medication (generalisation I know but still) whereas for the same ailments in other countries you would get nothing. I noticed this when I got my wisdom teeth taken out in Japan. Typically in America, they knock you out and remove all four at once and give you powerful drugs after the procedure to help with the pain. When I got the procedure done in Japan I was originally scheduled to have four separate procedures, until I complained and even then it was moved down to two, one for each side of my mouth. The anesthesia was local and the drugs I got were extremely light. I was definitely in pain way longer than friends who got the procedure, but it was bearable and ultimately I think I'm better off for not being described a hard opioid.
mikeh1010 9y ago
I agree that cannabis legalization could help public health addiction problems. One idea that I don't see brought up a lot is using cannabis in a rehab setting; basically trying to get people to replace one mind-altering substance with another. I don't think that should necessarily be a permanent solution but it seems more realistic than asking someone to go from doing drugs every day to being stone cold sober at all times. Cannabis could take the edge off and provide the mind altering feeling that some addicts seem to crave. [1] In all fairness I'm sure there are failures in this idea but I think it's worth exploring once we accept that cannabis is just nowhere near hard drugs on the harm spectrum. [1] https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2017/01/teens-drugs-iceland/513668/ https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2017/01/teens-dru...
DeBraid 9y ago
> ... between 1999 and 2010, states that permitted medical marijuana had an average of almost 25 percent fewer opioid overdose deaths each year than states where cannabis remained illegal. Source: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/could-medical-cannabis-break-the-painkiller-epidemic/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/could-medical-can...
- gozur88 9y ago
  It could just be that states with bigger opiate problems are less likely to ease restrictions on marijuana.
deleted 9y ago
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deleted 9y ago
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jobu 9y ago
> 1. [Marijuana] is reportedly a better pain killer in some cases than opioids so it keeps people off of the prescription opioids This is key. Prescription pain killers are the gateway drug to heroin, not marijuana. Many normal, working class people become unexpectedly addicted to opioids by using medications exactly as prescribed. Rush Limbaugh is probably the most high-profile example of this. The tighter rules on opioid prescriptions might have some effect, but it will likely take FDA approval of marijuana for this to be reversed. > 3. When people are already criminals (because they smoke weed) I think they are more likely to say "screw it" and try a harder drug.... Somewhat agree here, but I don't think they try heroin because they're already doing weed. They do it because life is shit and heroin is a hell of an escape. When life is that bad it's really hard to see the downside to using hard drugs. There are also some people that use heroin because of psychological issues or social pressure, but I think easy access to weed would reduce that as well.

graphitezepp 9y ago

I am pretty much with you. To add, 1. As far as I know, it doesn't actually kill pain, people just report that they no longer are bothered by the pain, or able to ignore it and still function. Which is probably better. 2. Fairly sure its not addictive at all in the pharmaceutical sense, and quite positive it can be in the way say World of Warcraft or other entertainment can be. 3. I actually buy the "gateway theory", but only because of this. Opposition seems to be the result of habit and years of ascribing negative virtue to recreational drug use (probably discounting alcohol cause cognitive dissonance).

posterboy 9y ago
1. How can one still function if you don't care about most basic emotions like pain? Trickquestion, one can't.

pavel_lishin 9y ago

> I'm actually for legalizing all drugs like several other posters but I don't think society is ready for that. If society isn't ready for that, why are you for it? (fwiw, I'm with you on marijuana, and hope to see the day when it's as legal as cigarettes - but people have been optimistic about marijuana for decades :/)

Zak 9y ago
> If society isn't ready for that, why are you for it? Not OP, but I think this means that it isn't a mainstream enough idea to get traction, and that it might be political suicide for an elected official to suggest it, not that society is ill-equipped to handle it if it did happen. I share this position. I think it's a good idea to legalize most drugs, but I think actively working toward legalizing drugs other than marijuana today would not get much in the way of results.
- throwaway2016a 9y ago
  Thank you, yes this is exactly what I meant.
senorjazz 9y ago
>>why are you for it? Because there is no other solution. None. The drug war has been a complete and utter failure from the viewpoint of society (those who have profited may disagree, but I hope we can agree their views can be ignored). IT has ruined lives, brought misery and suffering to many, all but destroyed some countries, helped wars continue long after they would have otherwise, unfairly targeted minorities. And for what gains? None, absolutely nothing. Drugs are cheaper, purer and more available than ever. That is all the billions if not trillions of $ has achieved.
- pavel_lishin 9y ago
  Ending the War on Drugs is not the same thing as legalizing all drugs. There are ways to fight addiction to things like methamphetamines and heroin without declaring all victims as the enemy. We should absolutely change how we deal with drugs and addition, but I'm not convinced that straight legalizing things like meth is the right approach, either.
stronglikedan 9y ago
Can't speak for OP, but in a more general sense, society as a whole will never be ready for some things that some individuals are for. That's why we (America) are a nation of laws, not of man. There will always be someone who doesn't like you, or what you do, or what you stand for, simply because it's all subjective.

slapshot 9y ago

> if you legalize marijuana you go a long way to solving the problem Well, Colorado tried that. Recreational weed has been fully legal in Colorado since January 1, 2014. You can walk down any major street in Denver or Boulder and pass multiple outlets selling marijuana. And they've sold lots of it, according to the tax receipts raised. The result has not been the sudden reversal of opioid addiction that you had hoped for. In 2015, opioid overdoses in Colorado continued to increase at the same rate as prior to legalization of marijuana. That year, opioid overdoses killed more Coloradans than homicide. [0] In 2016, the total number of opioid deaths dropped 6%, but the number of heroin overdoses continued to increase. [1] Personal experience in Portland Oregon suggests that in that city, legal marijuana has not made a dent in the meth and heroin issues that are still affecting the city. Maybe recreational marijuana laws have helped. Nothing in this data can disprove that maybe more people would have died without it. But it hasn't been a magic bullet. It hasn't yet gone "a long way to" solving the problem of heroin overuse. [FWIW, I'm in favor of recreational marijuana legalization, but the problems of heroin have different roots and we can't expect legal marijuana to immediately solve those issues.] [0] http://www.denverpost.com/2017/01/03/colorado-opioid-heroin-deaths-outnumbered-homicides/ http://www.denverpost.com/2017/01/03/colorado-opioid-heroin-... [1] http://www.denverpost.com/2017/03/07/colorado-opioid-heroin-deaths/ http://www.denverpost.com/2017/03/07/colorado-opioid-heroin-...

ska 9y ago
It will be interesting to see if this eventually puts a dent in the number of new opioid addictions - but that is a very different thing than addressing current addictions and/or transference from prescriptions to street drugs. I suspect it will be about a decade before any really good analysis can be done on that aspect.
rch 9y ago
I wouldn't take issue with your overall point, but the headline in your second link contradicts the article: As prescription opioid deaths drop 6 percent in Colorado, heroin deaths rise 23 percent vs. Overall, the total number of opiate deaths — meaning deaths from both prescription painkillers like fentanyl or from illegal opiates like heroin — fell by about 6 percent, from 472 deaths in 2015 to 442 deaths in 2016.

SCAQTony 9y ago

Pot would alleviate much of the heroin problem but with great advantages comes equal disadvantages. I suspect we will see these issues soon. Point number two: Marijuana is addictive and individuals with marijuana addiction entering voluntary rehab is increasing:(https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2797098/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2797098/) Theory: The reason one does not get physical withdraws is that it is oil based, stored in the fat and slowly dissipates in about 2-weeks or so whereas heroin is water soluble and leaves the body within 24-hours...

ska 9y ago
equal disadvantages Are you suggesting negative effects of marijuana usage are comparable to that of opioids? That really doesn't match any of the research I know of.
senorjazz 9y ago
Cannabis addiction (and I agree it exists) is not in the same league as opioid addiction. Heavy smokers may feel different when stopping, may have a few sleepless nights due to dreams returning, may be irritable, feel bored, but it is not at all comparable to those coming off a heavy opioid addiction. There is no equal disadvantage. If all heroin addicts were to magically over night turn into cannabis addicts and no longer be heroin addicts there will be many advantages and next to no disadvantages. Crime will go down. They will become employable, they will be able to lead "normal" lives. Disadvantages? I am not really thinking of any, let alone any that are equal
- eternalvision 9y ago
  Marijuana absolutely can and does cause far more significant withdrawal than just a few sleepless nights. Under certain circumstances, the withdrawal can persist for much, much longer. It's irresponsible to assume that marijuana is harmless and non-addictive or only mildly addictive, and too easy to justify as being benign, when juxtaposed wth the withdrawal process of harder drugs.
  - 9y ago

senorjazz 9y ago

> 1. It is reportedly a better pain killer in some cases than opioids so it keeps people off of the prescription opioids No it isn't and no it won't. If you have serious pain issues, then cannabis will not help at all. If you are just referring to a slight ache in your back in the morning, ok there is some research (clinical and anecdotal) that cannabis can be useful as as anti inflammatory. But you should not be getting opiods for this anyway. Part of the problem IMO based on speaking to various people from various countries, the US is just far too happy to prescribe strong medication (generalisation I know but still) whereas for the same ailments in other countries you would get nothing. Whether this is do to the profitization of the US health care system, or whether when you are paying as much as people in the US are you want to feel like you are getting something in return. To be told, do a few stretches, take a parecetamol (tylenol?) may not seem like good value for money, even if it is the better advice (I have seen similar behaviour in some other countries where health care if more privatised)

exclusiv 9y ago
A friend of mine gave her mother a lot of edibles that she made from marijuana she grew when she was suffering through cancer and in a lot of pain. Apparently she was happy until she passed. She had tried chemo at one point and had been miserable of course. My grandma has arthritis and a lot of back pain and the doctor gave her morphine. I doubt anything is better than that but it does seem overly excessive, although stretches and tylenol as you suggest is definitely too weak for her. I think there's a really nice place for marijuana as a pain medication.
- Kalium 9y ago
  You're absolutely right! Marijuana has a very useful place as one tool among many for palliative care. I believe parent may be suggesting that marijuana should not be regarded as a universal substitute for any and all use palliative uses of opiates.
Larrikin 9y ago
>Part of the problem IMO based on speaking to various people from various countries, the US is just far too happy to prescribe strong medication (generalisation I know but still) whereas for the same ailments in other countries you would get nothing. I noticed this when I got my wisdom teeth taken out in Japan. Typically in America, they knock you out and remove all four at once and give you powerful drugs after the procedure to help with the pain. When I got the procedure done in Japan I was originally scheduled to have four separate procedures, until I complained and even then it was moved down to two, one for each side of my mouth. The anesthesia was local and the drugs I got were extremely light. I was definitely in pain way longer than friends who got the procedure, but it was bearable and ultimately I think I'm better off for not being described a hard opioid.

mikeh1010 9y ago

I agree that cannabis legalization could help public health addiction problems. One idea that I don't see brought up a lot is using cannabis in a rehab setting; basically trying to get people to replace one mind-altering substance with another. I don't think that should necessarily be a permanent solution but it seems more realistic than asking someone to go from doing drugs every day to being stone cold sober at all times. Cannabis could take the edge off and provide the mind altering feeling that some addicts seem to crave. [1] In all fairness I'm sure there are failures in this idea but I think it's worth exploring once we accept that cannabis is just nowhere near hard drugs on the harm spectrum. [1] https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2017/01/teens-drugs-iceland/513668/ https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2017/01/teens-dru...

DeBraid 9y ago

> ... between 1999 and 2010, states that permitted medical marijuana had an average of almost 25 percent fewer opioid overdose deaths each year than states where cannabis remained illegal. Source: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/could-medical-cannabis-break-the-painkiller-epidemic/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/could-medical-can...

gozur88 9y ago
It could just be that states with bigger opiate problems are less likely to ease restrictions on marijuana.

deleted 9y ago

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deleted 9y ago

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jobu 9y ago

> 1. [Marijuana] is reportedly a better pain killer in some cases than opioids so it keeps people off of the prescription opioids This is key. Prescription pain killers are the gateway drug to heroin, not marijuana. Many normal, working class people become unexpectedly addicted to opioids by using medications exactly as prescribed. Rush Limbaugh is probably the most high-profile example of this. The tighter rules on opioid prescriptions might have some effect, but it will likely take FDA approval of marijuana for this to be reversed. > 3. When people are already criminals (because they smoke weed) I think they are more likely to say "screw it" and try a harder drug.... Somewhat agree here, but I don't think they try heroin because they're already doing weed. They do it because life is shit and heroin is a hell of an escape. When life is that bad it's really hard to see the downside to using hard drugs. There are also some people that use heroin because of psychological issues or social pressure, but I think easy access to weed would reduce that as well.