5 ms·

Turns out that in the real world, conservatives are far more dangerous for your freedoms than "SJW types".

Pigo 9y ago
I guess I'm misinterpreting all these antifa videos. Here I thought it was just a human thing, and both sides have the capability of pulling dumb, dangerous ideas out. No it's just conservatives right?
- _delirium 9y ago
  One important difference is that Theresa May is leader of a major western country, while Berkeley students you saw in a video on the internet aren't. This makes one of them a much more pressing threat. True among people on the same "side" of the political spectrum too. The Tories' brand of authoritarian conservatism is much more dangerous than Westboro Baptist Church, for example. You can find Westboro advocating plenty of outrageous things, but they aren't in charge of a country.
  - nailer 9y ago
    Jeremy Corbyn is similarly close to power and supports violence, particularly in the name of left causes, far more than the Conservatives. Here's a few choice examples: https://capx.co/there-is-no-moral-way-to-vote-labour-in-june/ https://capx.co/there-is-no-moral-way-to-vote-labour-in-june... Edit: hi Momentum! If any of these are incorrect you're welcome to reply.
    - wfo 9y ago
      There has been a huge partially successful smear campaign against Corbyn, some written by reputable politicians, some like this so laughable and ridiculous that only the already convinced manage to read through the whole thing without rolling their eyes and closing it. It means people with power are afraid of him which is quite encouraging!
      - nailer 9y ago
        The article addresses the 'smear campaign' theories - that: - the Labour front bench - the Labour electorate - the Guardian, - Jewish groups - Caitlin Moran and anyone else opposed to this madness are all involved in some kind of organised conspiracy against Corbyn, quite well: > Labour’s communications team lies about “the IRA thing”, claiming that Corbyn’s glorification of butchery should be seen as “helping the peace process”, as though the man who voted against the Anglo-Irish Agreement was secretly urging Gerry Adams to compromise. Corbyn fighting against the trial of the Brighton bomber and voting against the Anglo-Irish Agreement are matters of record. As are his statements of support for: - Hamas - Hezbollah - Fidel Castro - Hugo Chavez and other hard left groups who've attacked innocent people. They're laughable, but more in a: "this man thinks he has a shot of running the UK". Thankfully we reject this kind of populism more than the US does and a large chunk of the left isn't participating in or voting for Labour until/unless he's gone.
        wfo 9y ago
        Indeed the neoliberal consensus is that he and anyone who rejects it should not have any say in the government and extremist neoliberal ideology has taken over much of the elite power structures in the UK (as well as the US!) If saying nice things about bad people were actually a problem, no politician in history in any western society would ever be allowed to rule. Pick any politician and you will find them endorsing, funding, supporting or any combination brutal dictators, apartheid regimes, terrorists like Al Qaeda (years ago), slave states, various factions fighting in Syria, Iraq (pre Iraq war), Qatar, Turkey, Dubai, Iran (pre islamic revolution or post), Israel, death squads in South America, Pinochet, on and on and on. To have any "serious" position in modern foreign policy is to support evil. These "statements of support" are of course ridiculous 'gotcha' red herrings that actually mean nothing that neoliberal ideologues use to smear his personality and avoid talking about actual policy that could seriously effect the lives of ordinary UK citizens which they desperately do not want to improve, policy like for example the devastating and horrific one that is supposed to be the subject of this discussion thread.
        nailer 9y ago
    - pjc50 9y ago
      "CapX" is produced by the Center for Policy Studies, an opaque right wing think tank: https://www.desmog.uk/2017/02/08/opaque-and-deceptive-think-tanks-spend-millions-pushing-brexit-and-climate-science-misinformation https://www.desmog.uk/2017/02/08/opaque-and-deceptive-think-... http://whofundsyou.org/org/centre-for-policy-studies http://whofundsyou.org/org/centre-for-policy-studies This is basically a propaganda organisation, not a news organisation. Not that the news is reliable either.
      - nailer 9y ago
        It's still an excellent compendium of verifiable data. I'm left leaning, but like the Labour front bench, the Labour voters, and the Guardian I have to stand against hard left extremism rather than support it. in which case, the LibDems and Greens are excellent choices.
        ue_ 9y ago
        What makes you think Corbyn is an "extremist"? If you think the Labour party, with its strong social democratic is extreme, what must you think of the Communist Party? Perhaps I'm in a minority, but I don't think Corbyn is left enough.
        nailer 9y ago
        For those who don't live in the UK, Corbyn (and Momentum, the hard left group which has recently taken over the Labour party in the UK) is well known to support various groups who commit political violence against non-military targets.
        pjc50 9y ago
        The same is true of the Conservative party of course, if we count e.g. support of the government of Bahrain: http://www.dpglaw.co.uk/torture-victim-seeks-review-uk-training-bahrain-police/ http://www.dpglaw.co.uk/torture-victim-seeks-review-uk-train...
- wfo 9y ago
  A hundred 20 year old kids rioted one time against people they perceive to be nazis and were managed by the police, which is definitely the same as a modern mostly free society actively sliding into authoritarian dictatorship.
throwanem 9y ago
I don't like the "SJW" metaphor, but that said, there's really nothing to choose between those so described and their opposite numbers on the other side of the Assemblée Nationale. Different as the ends they profess to prefer may be, they eventually converge upon very similar means. Those of us with qualms about consequentialism find this unsettling.
fuzzybeard 9y ago
Not sure how it works in the UK, but here in the US there's a difference between "conservatives" and "Republicans". The key being that Republicans love big government when it's them in charge of it whereas conservatives want less government. So from the conservative conferences I've attended, the general sentiment is that people DON'T want an authoritarian government watching them. Further right into Nationalism is where you get the "if you didn't do anything wrong you have nothing to hide" mentality.
- nailer 9y ago
  > So from the conservative conferences I've attended, the general sentiment is that people DON'T want an authoritarian government watching them. May, as Home Secretary, made the laws that give the UK government 72 hours (IIRC) to read your personal email and 3 months to see all the subject lines / senders / recipients. To be clear: I'm not advocating voting for Corbyn by the above.

Pigo 9y ago

I guess I'm misinterpreting all these antifa videos. Here I thought it was just a human thing, and both sides have the capability of pulling dumb, dangerous ideas out. No it's just conservatives right?

_delirium 9y ago
One important difference is that Theresa May is leader of a major western country, while Berkeley students you saw in a video on the internet aren't. This makes one of them a much more pressing threat. True among people on the same "side" of the political spectrum too. The Tories' brand of authoritarian conservatism is much more dangerous than Westboro Baptist Church, for example. You can find Westboro advocating plenty of outrageous things, but they aren't in charge of a country.
- nailer 9y ago
  Jeremy Corbyn is similarly close to power and supports violence, particularly in the name of left causes, far more than the Conservatives. Here's a few choice examples: https://capx.co/there-is-no-moral-way-to-vote-labour-in-june/ https://capx.co/there-is-no-moral-way-to-vote-labour-in-june... Edit: hi Momentum! If any of these are incorrect you're welcome to reply.
  - wfo 9y ago
    There has been a huge partially successful smear campaign against Corbyn, some written by reputable politicians, some like this so laughable and ridiculous that only the already convinced manage to read through the whole thing without rolling their eyes and closing it. It means people with power are afraid of him which is quite encouraging!
    - nailer 9y ago
      The article addresses the 'smear campaign' theories - that: - the Labour front bench - the Labour electorate - the Guardian, - Jewish groups - Caitlin Moran and anyone else opposed to this madness are all involved in some kind of organised conspiracy against Corbyn, quite well: > Labour’s communications team lies about “the IRA thing”, claiming that Corbyn’s glorification of butchery should be seen as “helping the peace process”, as though the man who voted against the Anglo-Irish Agreement was secretly urging Gerry Adams to compromise. Corbyn fighting against the trial of the Brighton bomber and voting against the Anglo-Irish Agreement are matters of record. As are his statements of support for: - Hamas - Hezbollah - Fidel Castro - Hugo Chavez and other hard left groups who've attacked innocent people. They're laughable, but more in a: "this man thinks he has a shot of running the UK". Thankfully we reject this kind of populism more than the US does and a large chunk of the left isn't participating in or voting for Labour until/unless he's gone.
      - wfo 9y ago
        Indeed the neoliberal consensus is that he and anyone who rejects it should not have any say in the government and extremist neoliberal ideology has taken over much of the elite power structures in the UK (as well as the US!) If saying nice things about bad people were actually a problem, no politician in history in any western society would ever be allowed to rule. Pick any politician and you will find them endorsing, funding, supporting or any combination brutal dictators, apartheid regimes, terrorists like Al Qaeda (years ago), slave states, various factions fighting in Syria, Iraq (pre Iraq war), Qatar, Turkey, Dubai, Iran (pre islamic revolution or post), Israel, death squads in South America, Pinochet, on and on and on. To have any "serious" position in modern foreign policy is to support evil. These "statements of support" are of course ridiculous 'gotcha' red herrings that actually mean nothing that neoliberal ideologues use to smear his personality and avoid talking about actual policy that could seriously effect the lives of ordinary UK citizens which they desperately do not want to improve, policy like for example the devastating and horrific one that is supposed to be the subject of this discussion thread.
        nailer 9y ago
  - pjc50 9y ago
    "CapX" is produced by the Center for Policy Studies, an opaque right wing think tank: https://www.desmog.uk/2017/02/08/opaque-and-deceptive-think-tanks-spend-millions-pushing-brexit-and-climate-science-misinformation https://www.desmog.uk/2017/02/08/opaque-and-deceptive-think-... http://whofundsyou.org/org/centre-for-policy-studies http://whofundsyou.org/org/centre-for-policy-studies This is basically a propaganda organisation, not a news organisation. Not that the news is reliable either.
    - nailer 9y ago
      It's still an excellent compendium of verifiable data. I'm left leaning, but like the Labour front bench, the Labour voters, and the Guardian I have to stand against hard left extremism rather than support it. in which case, the LibDems and Greens are excellent choices.
      - ue_ 9y ago
        What makes you think Corbyn is an "extremist"? If you think the Labour party, with its strong social democratic is extreme, what must you think of the Communist Party? Perhaps I'm in a minority, but I don't think Corbyn is left enough.
        nailer 9y ago
        For those who don't live in the UK, Corbyn (and Momentum, the hard left group which has recently taken over the Labour party in the UK) is well known to support various groups who commit political violence against non-military targets.
        pjc50 9y ago
        The same is true of the Conservative party of course, if we count e.g. support of the government of Bahrain: http://www.dpglaw.co.uk/torture-victim-seeks-review-uk-training-bahrain-police/ http://www.dpglaw.co.uk/torture-victim-seeks-review-uk-train...
wfo 9y ago
A hundred 20 year old kids rioted one time against people they perceive to be nazis and were managed by the police, which is definitely the same as a modern mostly free society actively sliding into authoritarian dictatorship.

throwanem 9y ago

I don't like the "SJW" metaphor, but that said, there's really nothing to choose between those so described and their opposite numbers on the other side of the Assemblée Nationale. Different as the ends they profess to prefer may be, they eventually converge upon very similar means. Those of us with qualms about consequentialism find this unsettling.

fuzzybeard 9y ago

Not sure how it works in the UK, but here in the US there's a difference between "conservatives" and "Republicans". The key being that Republicans love big government when it's them in charge of it whereas conservatives want less government. So from the conservative conferences I've attended, the general sentiment is that people DON'T want an authoritarian government watching them. Further right into Nationalism is where you get the "if you didn't do anything wrong you have nothing to hide" mentality.

nailer 9y ago
> So from the conservative conferences I've attended, the general sentiment is that people DON'T want an authoritarian government watching them. May, as Home Secretary, made the laws that give the UK government 72 hours (IIRC) to read your personal email and 3 months to see all the subject lines / senders / recipients. To be clear: I'm not advocating voting for Corbyn by the above.