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The Trump campaign was, in fact, far-right The winning candidate in at least a semi-functional democracy cannot be far-anything. Trump's a mainstream American

by blfr 9y ago

The Trump campaign was, in fact, far-right The winning candidate in at least a semi-functional democracy cannot be far-anything. Trump's a mainstream American politician by definition.

eli_gottlieb 9y ago
>The winning candidate in at least a semi-functional democracy cannot be far-anything The Weimar Republic in 1933 seems like a pretty good counterexample to that. Incidentally, it shortly stopped being the Weimar Republic and became known instead as the Third Reich.
- dmix 9y ago
  https://www.wsj.com/articles/so-much-for-donald-mussolini-1490653551 https://www.wsj.com/articles/so-much-for-donald-mussolini-14... Having read a number of books on WW2 era Germany, attempting to compare the politically chaotic post-WW1 Germany, including the economic crisis, deep nationalist tensions, and the daily murders and gang fights in the streets of the capitals of Germany between the fringe nationalist socialists vs communist parties compared to America in 2016/17 is incredibly dubious. And even ignoring the numerous lack of comparisons to the political environments before the elections and the differences of the subsequent assent to power that Hitler took compared to Trump, the differences after the elections are countless. Most notably how the courts (via a republican judge) quickly shut down the dubious middle east immigration ban - probably the only far-right policy Trump managed to push into reality - which demonstrated that checks and balances are far from being sequestered. An essential 101 indicator of proto-fascism. This type of fear mongering is becoming less and less persuasive. Even though there are real and significant problems with the current administration it's not helping anyone to blow them out of context and pretend you're this vanguard against some modern version of Nazi germany. That's more likely to lose you support than help you achieve anything. If anything the anyone-who-supports-Trump-is-a-Nazi brigade did more to help elect him than prevent it. I've read a number of profiles of people who voted for Trump and who now regret it who said they voted for him merely as an affront to what the opposition represents, rather than actually supporting him. Peter Thiel seems to fit into this category.
  - eli_gottlieb 9y ago
    I wasn't making that comparison. I was pointing out that getting elected doesn't make a candidate centrist, especially when that candidate doesn't win a majority. Hitler's NSDAP got about a third of the seats in the Reichstag to put him at the head of government in 1933. Trump got about 46% of the votes in the US Presidential election of 2016. Neither of these needed to be mainstream to win, even though Hitler is a great deal further right than Trump. The error is to claim that Hitler became "center-right" or "middle of the road" upon becoming Reichskanzler. The center didn't move ultra-rightward (remember: the Communists also did well in that election), an ultra-rightist happened to win the plurality in a heavily polarized election.
    - dmix 9y ago
      What policy has Trump enacted that demonstrates the current administration is (functionally) far right? The difference being of course that it went beyond rhetoric of a political (marketing) campaign and beyond the checks-and-balances of the US government? If it is purely a matter of some random emotional tweet Trump made or some journalist filling in the gaps between what Steve Bannon may or may have not meant when he said x, then I will remain unconvinced that the US government is at any risk of being comparable to 1930-40s era fascist regimes.
      - eli_gottlieb 9y ago
        >What policy has Trump enacted that demonstrates the current administration is (functionally) far right? There's Betsy DeVos' new move to eliminate Income-Based Repayment plans for student loans, and many state-level bills to criminalize any protests that interfere with economically significant business (including labor pickets). And of course Jeff Sessions trying to restart the Drug War when basically everyone else just wants it ended. Remember, "far-right" doesn't just mean "fascist". It also just means "extremely capitalist" or "authoritarian in a conservative or capitalist cause". The American Right has actually spent a lot of political capital treating Trump as outside movement conservatism, as an aberrant far-right movement hijacking the Republican Party. They still have some of the William Buckley spirit to them, in which the John Birch Society or the Ku Klux Klan get purged rather than integrated.

by blfr 9y ago

The Trump campaign was, in fact, far-right The winning candidate in at least a semi-functional democracy cannot be far-anything. Trump's a mainstream American politician by definition.

eli_gottlieb 9y ago

>The winning candidate in at least a semi-functional democracy cannot be far-anything The Weimar Republic in 1933 seems like a pretty good counterexample to that. Incidentally, it shortly stopped being the Weimar Republic and became known instead as the Third Reich.

dmix 9y ago
https://www.wsj.com/articles/so-much-for-donald-mussolini-1490653551 https://www.wsj.com/articles/so-much-for-donald-mussolini-14... Having read a number of books on WW2 era Germany, attempting to compare the politically chaotic post-WW1 Germany, including the economic crisis, deep nationalist tensions, and the daily murders and gang fights in the streets of the capitals of Germany between the fringe nationalist socialists vs communist parties compared to America in 2016/17 is incredibly dubious. And even ignoring the numerous lack of comparisons to the political environments before the elections and the differences of the subsequent assent to power that Hitler took compared to Trump, the differences after the elections are countless. Most notably how the courts (via a republican judge) quickly shut down the dubious middle east immigration ban - probably the only far-right policy Trump managed to push into reality - which demonstrated that checks and balances are far from being sequestered. An essential 101 indicator of proto-fascism. This type of fear mongering is becoming less and less persuasive. Even though there are real and significant problems with the current administration it's not helping anyone to blow them out of context and pretend you're this vanguard against some modern version of Nazi germany. That's more likely to lose you support than help you achieve anything. If anything the anyone-who-supports-Trump-is-a-Nazi brigade did more to help elect him than prevent it. I've read a number of profiles of people who voted for Trump and who now regret it who said they voted for him merely as an affront to what the opposition represents, rather than actually supporting him. Peter Thiel seems to fit into this category.
- eli_gottlieb 9y ago
  I wasn't making that comparison. I was pointing out that getting elected doesn't make a candidate centrist, especially when that candidate doesn't win a majority. Hitler's NSDAP got about a third of the seats in the Reichstag to put him at the head of government in 1933. Trump got about 46% of the votes in the US Presidential election of 2016. Neither of these needed to be mainstream to win, even though Hitler is a great deal further right than Trump. The error is to claim that Hitler became "center-right" or "middle of the road" upon becoming Reichskanzler. The center didn't move ultra-rightward (remember: the Communists also did well in that election), an ultra-rightist happened to win the plurality in a heavily polarized election.
  - dmix 9y ago
    What policy has Trump enacted that demonstrates the current administration is (functionally) far right? The difference being of course that it went beyond rhetoric of a political (marketing) campaign and beyond the checks-and-balances of the US government? If it is purely a matter of some random emotional tweet Trump made or some journalist filling in the gaps between what Steve Bannon may or may have not meant when he said x, then I will remain unconvinced that the US government is at any risk of being comparable to 1930-40s era fascist regimes.
    - eli_gottlieb 9y ago
      >What policy has Trump enacted that demonstrates the current administration is (functionally) far right? There's Betsy DeVos' new move to eliminate Income-Based Repayment plans for student loans, and many state-level bills to criminalize any protests that interfere with economically significant business (including labor pickets). And of course Jeff Sessions trying to restart the Drug War when basically everyone else just wants it ended. Remember, "far-right" doesn't just mean "fascist". It also just means "extremely capitalist" or "authoritarian in a conservative or capitalist cause". The American Right has actually spent a lot of political capital treating Trump as outside movement conservatism, as an aberrant far-right movement hijacking the Republican Party. They still have some of the William Buckley spirit to them, in which the John Birch Society or the Ku Klux Klan get purged rather than integrated.