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> I don't I need to tell you that every time they've tried to pull the profit motive out a system in the past, it's been a complete disaster... It should be a

by ue_ 9y ago

> I don't I need to tell you that every time they've tried to pull the profit motive out a system in the past, it's been a complete disaster... It should be a gradual change, even Marx in the Communist Manifesto proposed various gradual changes to help with this, and I'm not really advocating any particular method myself. Cockshott has written new works on computerised central planning in attempting to deal with the ECP (Towards a New Socialism). However there are alternatives such as distributed planning, or even mutualism or market Socialism. >You yourself admit that co-ops get crushed by for-profit companies. Won't co-op countries get crushed by for-profit countries? This is why I argue that it is not a possibility to have the Socialist revolution in only one country, it is unsustainable; Communism must mature to a stateless society, and for this reason Marx urged the workers of the world to unite, and every single one of the Workingmen Association meetings were international. Nationalism misses out a key component of Communism. The terms I use are beacuse Marxism is the school of economics I first became interested in, and largely the one which I learn about, so I mostly speak on Marx's terms, because Marx believed that being precise about what he meant was key to understanding his theory. I simply don't really know what terms the non-Marxians use. >You've read Hayek right? I have not, though I don't think totalitarianism is the answer, rather I argue that the usual functions of force of the state should be abolished soon after the proletariat have taken control of it, and the state should wither away, paving the way to a stateless society.

cjlars 9y ago
>market Socialism After all of this, we're back at market socialism? You could have just said that at the start if you meant it. >This is why I argue that it is not a possibility to have the Socialist revolution in only one country, it is unsustainable; Communism must mature to a stateless society This is slavery. Are you mad? No choice, no flight over the border to freedom, no escape from compelled labor at the hands of your government... And all of this, for a system you admit is worse at providing a high standard of living than the status quo. What's the gain? >the usual functions of force of the state should be abolished soon after the proletariat have taken control of it And how does the proletariat take control anyway? Bloody revolution? Once the state dissolves the market, and then dissolves itself, the market will simply emerge again -- it has happened everywhere. Remember, you admit the co-op leads to worse outcomes than the market -- the market will re-gain control since it's better at the function of 'providing a standard of living for people,' and people want 'a standard of living'. You need a mechanism to maintain your desired social designs, if there is none, a market emerges, to prevent the market, you need totalitarianism.

by ue_ 9y ago

cjlars 9y ago

>market Socialism After all of this, we're back at market socialism? You could have just said that at the start if you meant it. >This is why I argue that it is not a possibility to have the Socialist revolution in only one country, it is unsustainable; Communism must mature to a stateless society This is slavery. Are you mad? No choice, no flight over the border to freedom, no escape from compelled labor at the hands of your government... And all of this, for a system you admit is worse at providing a high standard of living than the status quo. What's the gain? >the usual functions of force of the state should be abolished soon after the proletariat have taken control of it And how does the proletariat take control anyway? Bloody revolution? Once the state dissolves the market, and then dissolves itself, the market will simply emerge again -- it has happened everywhere. Remember, you admit the co-op leads to worse outcomes than the market -- the market will re-gain control since it's better at the function of 'providing a standard of living for people,' and people want 'a standard of living'. You need a mechanism to maintain your desired social designs, if there is none, a market emerges, to prevent the market, you need totalitarianism.