4 ms·

When I studied you had to pass an exam. Certain subjects had a very high bar. For example civil engineering. Can't get it without top grades and top results in

by lz400 9y ago

When I studied you had to pass an exam. Certain subjects had a very high bar. For example civil engineering. Can't get it without top grades and top results in the exam. Apart from that, some degrees had very low acceptance scores and many people tended to study some humanities or economics degree that largely won't use afterwards, just for the social pressure of being an uni graduate. It's arguably how much you want to subsidize these people and how good that is for society, I'd agree trade schools and other paths should be encouraged and there's too much silly status attached to an uni degree. Still, overall, the system works in pretty much every first world country.

lr4444lr 9y ago
All of which are worthy considerations in making a judgment on the "better" system. I was just making an important qualification: the U.S. system has wider opportunities for pretty much anyone to attend somewhere and study anything. Now I will be the first to say that the sheer numbers attending universities in the U.S. beggar belief that they many or all of the increased enrollment allow the schools to maintain the same standards. But the point remains that our access may in fact be better than in "free" European countries.
- lz400 9y ago
  I don't think that's true. Can anyone become a doctor? Where I studied as long as you passed the entrance bar, you can. In big cities there are usually several public universities, some more prestigious perhaps, with a low score you can probably get into the less prestigious ones but you can be a doctor at close to 0 cost. I don't think you can become a doctor in the US without incurring serious debt for example?
  - lr4444lr 9y ago
    I admit that's a bit of a special case because the AMA restricts accreditation. I would note that schools in the Caribbean have arisen to fill that need - they are notorious for taking students who performed low on the MCAT. I believe the higher debt these students take on is commensurate with physician salaries here are in most cases much higher than in Europe.
    - lz400 9y ago
      Ok so we are talking about colleges that are so bad they don't let you get accreditation for important professions. Not sure if it's what I'm thinking about, but are those the "community colleges", liberal arts universities and stuff like that? In any case you can't study "what you want". You can't become a doctor and I'd guess not an aviation engineer, architect, etc. and expect employment in your field right? Not without going to a "proper" school on debt. That doesn't happen in Europe. There you can get into all those degrees on ~0 cost. For some you need some academic record but I'd argue that's a good thing. A very bad student is never going to finish medicine anyway.
      - Amezarak 9y ago
        No, medical school is a whole different ballgame. The AMA limits the number of medical students per year and tightly controls the system. For almost all professions, you can work in that profession after getting a degree from any accredited institution (or often even an unaccredited institution.) Almost all schools are accredited. Virtually every (probably every) public university is accredited and they usually have very low admittance requirements, low costs, and generous scholarships. In many (most?) states, high test scores or a good high school GPA get you a free ride to an in-state public university. Community college is a good way to get the first two years of a four year degree, or for an Associate's degree that, depending on your field, may be sufficient. They generally also have vocational programs. You could most certainly become an aviation engineer, architect, etc. by going to almost any school. The debt story is vastly overblown in the US - it's a serious problem, but mostly among middle-class to upper-middle class families who allow their kids to select the most prestigious and expensive schools, regardless of their academic qualifications, chosen major, or ability to pay. Even in 2017 you can easily get a four-year degree from a good accredited institution and graduate debt free, even if you're not an academic superstar.
mcguire 9y ago
"When I studied you had to pass an exam. Certain subjects had a very high bar. For example civil engineering. Can't get it without top grades and top results in the exam." That would be the other side of the coin: if you do poorly on the exam or have poor grades, your choices are limited, no? The upside of the American system is that anyone can get higher education. The downside is that many of the schools are tuition mills.
- lz400 9y ago
  The most prestigious schools in the most difficult degrees might be difficult if you are a crappy student. That's probably for the best. If the US can you study in one of those "tuition mill" schools and become a doctor or an aviation engineer and work in your field?
  - mcguire 9y ago
    Yes, although there are some limitations there: medicine has a high barrier to entry and engineering requires an accredited degree and certification. Most of the tuition mill students get "information technology" or similar degrees that lack strong professional organizations.

by lz400 9y ago

lr4444lr 9y ago

All of which are worthy considerations in making a judgment on the "better" system. I was just making an important qualification: the U.S. system has wider opportunities for pretty much anyone to attend somewhere and study anything. Now I will be the first to say that the sheer numbers attending universities in the U.S. beggar belief that they many or all of the increased enrollment allow the schools to maintain the same standards. But the point remains that our access may in fact be better than in "free" European countries.

lz400 9y ago
I don't think that's true. Can anyone become a doctor? Where I studied as long as you passed the entrance bar, you can. In big cities there are usually several public universities, some more prestigious perhaps, with a low score you can probably get into the less prestigious ones but you can be a doctor at close to 0 cost. I don't think you can become a doctor in the US without incurring serious debt for example?
- lr4444lr 9y ago
  I admit that's a bit of a special case because the AMA restricts accreditation. I would note that schools in the Caribbean have arisen to fill that need - they are notorious for taking students who performed low on the MCAT. I believe the higher debt these students take on is commensurate with physician salaries here are in most cases much higher than in Europe.
  - lz400 9y ago
    Ok so we are talking about colleges that are so bad they don't let you get accreditation for important professions. Not sure if it's what I'm thinking about, but are those the "community colleges", liberal arts universities and stuff like that? In any case you can't study "what you want". You can't become a doctor and I'd guess not an aviation engineer, architect, etc. and expect employment in your field right? Not without going to a "proper" school on debt. That doesn't happen in Europe. There you can get into all those degrees on ~0 cost. For some you need some academic record but I'd argue that's a good thing. A very bad student is never going to finish medicine anyway.
    - Amezarak 9y ago
      No, medical school is a whole different ballgame. The AMA limits the number of medical students per year and tightly controls the system. For almost all professions, you can work in that profession after getting a degree from any accredited institution (or often even an unaccredited institution.) Almost all schools are accredited. Virtually every (probably every) public university is accredited and they usually have very low admittance requirements, low costs, and generous scholarships. In many (most?) states, high test scores or a good high school GPA get you a free ride to an in-state public university. Community college is a good way to get the first two years of a four year degree, or for an Associate's degree that, depending on your field, may be sufficient. They generally also have vocational programs. You could most certainly become an aviation engineer, architect, etc. by going to almost any school. The debt story is vastly overblown in the US - it's a serious problem, but mostly among middle-class to upper-middle class families who allow their kids to select the most prestigious and expensive schools, regardless of their academic qualifications, chosen major, or ability to pay. Even in 2017 you can easily get a four-year degree from a good accredited institution and graduate debt free, even if you're not an academic superstar.

mcguire 9y ago

"When I studied you had to pass an exam. Certain subjects had a very high bar. For example civil engineering. Can't get it without top grades and top results in the exam." That would be the other side of the coin: if you do poorly on the exam or have poor grades, your choices are limited, no? The upside of the American system is that anyone can get higher education. The downside is that many of the schools are tuition mills.

lz400 9y ago
The most prestigious schools in the most difficult degrees might be difficult if you are a crappy student. That's probably for the best. If the US can you study in one of those "tuition mill" schools and become a doctor or an aviation engineer and work in your field?
- mcguire 9y ago
  Yes, although there are some limitations there: medicine has a high barrier to entry and engineering requires an accredited degree and certification. Most of the tuition mill students get "information technology" or similar degrees that lack strong professional organizations.