6 ms·

Well this looks like going to push Kotlin in big league. I remember scala enthusiasts made big noise in last few years to have scala as officially supported lan

by geodel 9y ago

Well this looks like going to push Kotlin in big league. I remember scala enthusiasts made big noise in last few years to have scala as officially supported language. But Google seems to prefer a closer relationship with Jetbrains.

pjmlp 9y ago
Scala never worked that well, for example it requires several steps, focus on sbt, requires the pure InteliJ version instead of Android Studio, thus forcing developers to be a few versions behind on Android plugins. http://scala-on-android.taig.io/sources/ http://scala-on-android.taig.io/sources/
- ajross 9y ago
  IIRC Scala also has a decidedly non-trivial runtime library with its own set of abstractions, where Kotlin is basically "better syntax" on top the existing JDK/Android library ecosystem. Writing Scala to deal with an existing Java framework "feels like" working with an FFI, where in Kotlin it's more natural.
  - stusmall 9y ago
    Because of that non-trivial runtime when I used it, it also required pro-guard. I like proguard but it comes with its own set of issues. I typically set it up at some point in a project, but I don't want it required as a first step on a new project.
allover 9y ago
I don't see what it has to do with relationships. Convince us why Scala would've been a better choice?
- dhfhduk 9y ago
  I have nothing against Kotlin. It seems to be coming out of nowhere to surpass more "tested" languages for lack of a better way of putting it, but as I'm reading about it I can truly see the appeal. The one thing I'm having trouble figuring out, though, is how much it diverges from Java in terms of inheritance, traits, etc. The verbosity of Java is one thing, but its inheritance system is what made me want to pull my hair out. Languages like Scala, Haskell, Rust, etc. are preferable to me in that way. Kotlin seems nice and clean--from what I've seen so far, with this "Android bump", Kotlin native, etc., I could even see it replacing Python--but I worry there's something lurking deeper. This is the clearest thing I've found so far, but it's very old at this point: http://codeofrob.com/entries/looking-at-kotlin---kicking-the-java-inheritance-addiction.html http://codeofrob.com/entries/looking-at-kotlin---kicking-the... It includes this quote that stokes my fears: "It feels as if the language designers haven't really designed at this point, they've just thrown a load of stuff at the wall because inheritance is something that all Java developers want and given us a few bad ways of doing something as well as something that has the potential to make us write better Java." I don't have any attachment to Scala. However, I do think Scala, Rust, etc. have moved language design forward in significant, fundamental ways, and it would be nice to see those advancements recognized in the Android platform. Take this all with a grain of salt, though, because I know next to nothing about Kotlin.
  - MBlume 9y ago
    I think the case for Kotlin over Scala is that the runtime you have to link into your app is substantially smaller, which is important for mobile.
  - kllrnohj 9y ago
    It's weird you'd accuse Kotlin of throwing stuff at the wall while simultaneously speaking kind of Scala. Scala has so many competing ideas & approaches just all mashed up into a blob.
    - dkarl 9y ago
      Scala isn't so much a mishmash as it is fertile ground for people to do all kinds of weird stuff that looks like part of the language. Very much like C++, with the same potential for committing atrocities. And like C++ was, it's great from a programmer perspective (long lever, you get what you want/deserve) but bad from a corporate perspective. (Somehow C++ acquired an aura of corporate respectability, but in retrospect it's surprising, considering it has the same problems as Scala: a difficult and sometimes esoteric language, hard to hire for, amplifies programmers instead of smoothing them out, easy to misuse with tragic results, might walk by a developer's desk and see them consulting a book instead of pounding out LOC, etc.) I'm thrilled that Google is supporting Kotlin, though. Official support for Scala was never going to happen, and Kotlin sounds like a huge step up. I regret sinking so much time into struggling with Scala on Android.
      - deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
    - lmm 9y ago
      This is wrong. It might look like that from afar, but what seems like complex features in Scala are almost always actually combinations of simple, powerful features, and the combination works exactly the way you'd expect once you understand the simple features. (Almost all of the concrete examples people give of "Scala complexity" are actually library features implemented in plain Scala, and if you get confused you can always click through to the source and read how they're implemented, because they're just plain old code). Whereas in Kotlin they really do just implement every use case as a separate language-level feature.
- lmm 9y ago
  Objective-sounding reasons: Scala has got a large library ecosystem, it's demonstrated an ability to retain backwards compatibility while evolving the language (Kotlin may yet get this right (well, no it won't, but that's getting into a more technical argument) but many languages don't, and Kotlin simply hasn't been around long enough to see whether it's any good at handling change). Developer reasons: Scala is a much more elegant language. Failure reporting in Kotlin completely sucks (in some ways it's worse than Java since they've removed checked exceptions and not offered any substitute - they make a lot of fuss about handling null/options but all that completely breaks down as soon as you want to actually report a reason why something failed). Typeclasses with automatic derivation are really nice. In a big application I might like to be able to do FRP stuff or async pipelines; not only does Kotlin not have an equivalent to fs2 but it's impossible to write one in the language. Every time a new thing comes along Kotlin adds it into the language as a new, different feature because they're allergic to offering general features you could use to implement things yourself (e.g. async/await).
  - sorokod 9y ago
    > Scala has got a large library ecosystem Kotlin has the entire java ecosystem to work with.
    - lmm 9y ago
      So has Scala (to exactly the same extent as Kotlin, despite what Kotlin pushers will tell you), it's just got a better additional library ecosystem than Kotlin has.
RivieraKid 9y ago
I vastly prefer Kotlin over Scala. Kotlin is probably more productive for a typical dev or team.
izacus 9y ago
The newest version of Scala (2.12) requires a JVM with Java 8 feature compatibility which makes it unusable on Android devices. Google would literally be stuck supporting an obsolete version of a language that's not developed... or restrict the use of it only to Android O and newer making it dead on arrival. Kotlin compiler generates code that's runnable on JVMs supporting Java 6, which makes it work on pretty much any Android device, even running older Androids. Scala standard library is also huge and pretty much immediately hits the 64K method limit of DEX files forcing you to use the very slow proguard compilation step when running it. It also has issues with interoperability with existing Java 6 code. All in all, Scala is a terrible value proposition in comparison to Kotlin which was built from ground up to modernize programming while still keeping full compatibility with Java 6 code and JVMs stuck on Java 6 language level.
- devdoomari 9y ago
  thought recent android's tools update meant I can use java8 on android devices... guess that requires a recent android device :(
  - pjmlp 9y ago
    The amount of supported features depends on the target API of the application.
  - izacus 9y ago
    The devices themselves still run a JVM (Dalvik and ART) that's basically compatible only with ~JRE7 bytecode. There are some new features in ART since N, but still the JVM isn't fully Java 8 compatible (afaik invoke-dynamic for lambdas is still not supported). So the Java 8 tools you're talking about essentially take Java 8 compiled bytecode and patch out the parts that aren't compatible with device JVM (e.g. they replace lambda invocations with anonymous classes like you'd use on Java 6 etc.). This doesn't work for things like Scala which use these new features in patterns those tools can't patch/recognise.
- hyperpallium 9y ago
  Bit of an aside, but is the Kotlin compiler itself runnable on JVMs supporting Java 6? So you could compile on an Android device.
simon_o 9y ago
It's kind of hard to get developers to adopt Scala for Android, when people in charge are diametrically opposed to even acknowledge its existence. :-)

by geodel 9y ago

pjmlp 9y ago

Scala never worked that well, for example it requires several steps, focus on sbt, requires the pure InteliJ version instead of Android Studio, thus forcing developers to be a few versions behind on Android plugins. http://scala-on-android.taig.io/sources/ http://scala-on-android.taig.io/sources/

ajross 9y ago
IIRC Scala also has a decidedly non-trivial runtime library with its own set of abstractions, where Kotlin is basically "better syntax" on top the existing JDK/Android library ecosystem. Writing Scala to deal with an existing Java framework "feels like" working with an FFI, where in Kotlin it's more natural.
- stusmall 9y ago
  Because of that non-trivial runtime when I used it, it also required pro-guard. I like proguard but it comes with its own set of issues. I typically set it up at some point in a project, but I don't want it required as a first step on a new project.

allover 9y ago

I don't see what it has to do with relationships. Convince us why Scala would've been a better choice?

dhfhduk 9y ago
I have nothing against Kotlin. It seems to be coming out of nowhere to surpass more "tested" languages for lack of a better way of putting it, but as I'm reading about it I can truly see the appeal. The one thing I'm having trouble figuring out, though, is how much it diverges from Java in terms of inheritance, traits, etc. The verbosity of Java is one thing, but its inheritance system is what made me want to pull my hair out. Languages like Scala, Haskell, Rust, etc. are preferable to me in that way. Kotlin seems nice and clean--from what I've seen so far, with this "Android bump", Kotlin native, etc., I could even see it replacing Python--but I worry there's something lurking deeper. This is the clearest thing I've found so far, but it's very old at this point: http://codeofrob.com/entries/looking-at-kotlin---kicking-the-java-inheritance-addiction.html http://codeofrob.com/entries/looking-at-kotlin---kicking-the... It includes this quote that stokes my fears: "It feels as if the language designers haven't really designed at this point, they've just thrown a load of stuff at the wall because inheritance is something that all Java developers want and given us a few bad ways of doing something as well as something that has the potential to make us write better Java." I don't have any attachment to Scala. However, I do think Scala, Rust, etc. have moved language design forward in significant, fundamental ways, and it would be nice to see those advancements recognized in the Android platform. Take this all with a grain of salt, though, because I know next to nothing about Kotlin.
- MBlume 9y ago
  I think the case for Kotlin over Scala is that the runtime you have to link into your app is substantially smaller, which is important for mobile.
- kllrnohj 9y ago
  It's weird you'd accuse Kotlin of throwing stuff at the wall while simultaneously speaking kind of Scala. Scala has so many competing ideas & approaches just all mashed up into a blob.
  - dkarl 9y ago
    Scala isn't so much a mishmash as it is fertile ground for people to do all kinds of weird stuff that looks like part of the language. Very much like C++, with the same potential for committing atrocities. And like C++ was, it's great from a programmer perspective (long lever, you get what you want/deserve) but bad from a corporate perspective. (Somehow C++ acquired an aura of corporate respectability, but in retrospect it's surprising, considering it has the same problems as Scala: a difficult and sometimes esoteric language, hard to hire for, amplifies programmers instead of smoothing them out, easy to misuse with tragic results, might walk by a developer's desk and see them consulting a book instead of pounding out LOC, etc.) I'm thrilled that Google is supporting Kotlin, though. Official support for Scala was never going to happen, and Kotlin sounds like a huge step up. I regret sinking so much time into struggling with Scala on Android.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
  - lmm 9y ago
    This is wrong. It might look like that from afar, but what seems like complex features in Scala are almost always actually combinations of simple, powerful features, and the combination works exactly the way you'd expect once you understand the simple features. (Almost all of the concrete examples people give of "Scala complexity" are actually library features implemented in plain Scala, and if you get confused you can always click through to the source and read how they're implemented, because they're just plain old code). Whereas in Kotlin they really do just implement every use case as a separate language-level feature.
lmm 9y ago
Objective-sounding reasons: Scala has got a large library ecosystem, it's demonstrated an ability to retain backwards compatibility while evolving the language (Kotlin may yet get this right (well, no it won't, but that's getting into a more technical argument) but many languages don't, and Kotlin simply hasn't been around long enough to see whether it's any good at handling change). Developer reasons: Scala is a much more elegant language. Failure reporting in Kotlin completely sucks (in some ways it's worse than Java since they've removed checked exceptions and not offered any substitute - they make a lot of fuss about handling null/options but all that completely breaks down as soon as you want to actually report a reason why something failed). Typeclasses with automatic derivation are really nice. In a big application I might like to be able to do FRP stuff or async pipelines; not only does Kotlin not have an equivalent to fs2 but it's impossible to write one in the language. Every time a new thing comes along Kotlin adds it into the language as a new, different feature because they're allergic to offering general features you could use to implement things yourself (e.g. async/await).
- sorokod 9y ago
  > Scala has got a large library ecosystem Kotlin has the entire java ecosystem to work with.
  - lmm 9y ago
    So has Scala (to exactly the same extent as Kotlin, despite what Kotlin pushers will tell you), it's just got a better additional library ecosystem than Kotlin has.

RivieraKid 9y ago

I vastly prefer Kotlin over Scala. Kotlin is probably more productive for a typical dev or team.

izacus 9y ago

The newest version of Scala (2.12) requires a JVM with Java 8 feature compatibility which makes it unusable on Android devices. Google would literally be stuck supporting an obsolete version of a language that's not developed... or restrict the use of it only to Android O and newer making it dead on arrival. Kotlin compiler generates code that's runnable on JVMs supporting Java 6, which makes it work on pretty much any Android device, even running older Androids. Scala standard library is also huge and pretty much immediately hits the 64K method limit of DEX files forcing you to use the very slow proguard compilation step when running it. It also has issues with interoperability with existing Java 6 code. All in all, Scala is a terrible value proposition in comparison to Kotlin which was built from ground up to modernize programming while still keeping full compatibility with Java 6 code and JVMs stuck on Java 6 language level.

devdoomari 9y ago
thought recent android's tools update meant I can use java8 on android devices... guess that requires a recent android device :(
- pjmlp 9y ago
  The amount of supported features depends on the target API of the application.
- izacus 9y ago
  The devices themselves still run a JVM (Dalvik and ART) that's basically compatible only with ~JRE7 bytecode. There are some new features in ART since N, but still the JVM isn't fully Java 8 compatible (afaik invoke-dynamic for lambdas is still not supported). So the Java 8 tools you're talking about essentially take Java 8 compiled bytecode and patch out the parts that aren't compatible with device JVM (e.g. they replace lambda invocations with anonymous classes like you'd use on Java 6 etc.). This doesn't work for things like Scala which use these new features in patterns those tools can't patch/recognise.
hyperpallium 9y ago
Bit of an aside, but is the Kotlin compiler itself runnable on JVMs supporting Java 6? So you could compile on an Android device.

simon_o 9y ago

It's kind of hard to get developers to adopt Scala for Android, when people in charge are diametrically opposed to even acknowledge its existence. :-)