6 ms·

In a word: No.

by CiPHPerCoder 9y ago

In a word: No.

interfixus 9y ago
Then could the downvoters please explain to me how this male is supposed to be female?
- coldtea 9y ago
  By the power of will.
- CiPHPerCoder 9y ago
  Simple: A person's gender is a part of their personal identity. Chelsea Manning says that their gender is female, even if their biological sex is male. As a consequence of respect for their personal identity as a member of society (and NOT fixating on their sex organs, which is frankly creepy), most people will refer to a trans* person as the gender they identify as, not the sex they were born with. Or, if uncertain (because of genderfluidity and new pronouns like Xe/Xir/whatever), just using "singular they" and moving on with your life. It's a polite society thing.
  - myaccountzz 9y ago
    > Simple: A person's gender is a part of their personal identity. That's an opinion.
    - CiPHPerCoder 9y ago
      That's actually a fact. Gender is defined as: the state of being male or female (typically used with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones). For most people, your gender and your sex are congruent. For others, it isn't. Even if you don't agree: Why do you care?
      - tree_of_item 9y ago
        Some people care because gender identity is eroding sex based protections. I should think women care a lot that men are now allowed in their spaces based on an internal sense of "gender".
        CiPHPerCoder 9y ago
        > Some people care because gender identity is eroding sex based protections. What do your greater political fears have to do with treating others with respect? > I should think women care a lot that men are now allowed in their spaces based on an internal sense of "gender". Are you talking about that bathroom debacle? I've got a simple solution: http://scott.arciszewski.me/blog/2017/03/trans-bathroom-rights http://scott.arciszewski.me/blog/2017/03/trans-bathroom-righ...
        novia 9y ago
        I should think women care a lot that men are now allowed in their spaces based on an internal sense of "gender". No. We don't. Transwomen are welcome in our bathrooms, locker rooms, and spas.
        tree_of_item 9y ago
        Here are a few women who disagree with you: https://www.reddit.com/r/GenderCritical/comments/5dwaqy/peak_trans_iv_tell_your_story_here https://www.reddit.com/r/GenderCritical/comments/5dwaqy/peak...
        novia 9y ago
        There are 7126 subscribers to the subreddit you linked. A notable feminist subreddit that is actively not transphobic (that I am not going to link to because I love it and I do not want it to be brigaded) has 214400 subscribers. So your sample is about 3% of the internet population if we believe that reddit is a representative sample. I sincerely believe that the vast majority of women are tired of being used as an excuse for bigotry.
  - interfixus 9y ago
    What's creepy here is the raging fashion of postmodernish, unanchored, up-for-grabs neo-reality. It really is about as Newspeak as it can get. There's no effing subjectivity about male and female. I checked with my cats. They agree.
  - tree_of_item 9y ago
    It is not "creepy" to understand that biological sex is a real, observable thing with causal effects on our surroundings, and "gender identity" isn't.
  - orblivion 9y ago
    When we refer to things, we use words that convey our perception of them. People identify themselves a certain way, and I can identify them a certain way too. The notion of someone's gender has relevance to others. It doesn't make sense to go purely based on their own self perception. For me, I tend to assign gender by sex. I don't want to disrespect myself by saying something I don't believe. On the other hand I don't want to disrespect others either. So for now my approach is to sidestep the issue and refer to all trans people with "they".
    - Raphmedia 9y ago
      > When we refer to things, we use words that convey our perception of them. We are not talking about cross-dressers. We are talking about transgender individuals. You wouldn't even be able to notice them standing in front of you once their transition is complete.
      - orblivion 9y ago
        Then they might lead me to believe something I wouldn't believe if I knew more. It's not just about what I can see. (I see your point about the word "perception", probably a bad choice of words) But sure, maybe I'd even internalize it and accept it if I knew it but they appeared very convincing, at least for everyday interaction purposes. I probably am more resistant to that than I otherwise would be given the social climate.
        Raphmedia 9y ago
        > I'd even internalize it and accept it if I knew it but they appeared very convincing, at least for everyday interaction purposes I don't understand that part. I think there are some concepts that are confusing you. All of the transgender individuals that I have known from before their transition pass as their new gender without any issues. The only way anybody would know if you told them. Story time: You know how men always like to boast and compare their masculinity while drinking? Well, one time we were out drinking with friends. A man from my high-school (who was a girl last I saw him) was with us. He is quite manly, has a beard and looks like what you would expect a fashionable young man in his mid twenties to look like. After a few beer one of the guys turns toward the man in question and, without having a clue that this is a transgender individual and tells him: "We know how it is with you lucky guys who hit the genetic lottery and are so manly. With a beard like that I bet all the girls must be throwing themselves at you. I must be half the man you are." ... My jaw dropped. It was a ridiculous situation to witness but it shows just how easy it is to be next to someone who has gone through a complete transition without having a clue. If you live in a city, I'm sure that you have called at least one or two transgender individuals by their new pronoun without being aware of it.
  - bobbington 9y ago
    I think all to quickly we rush to accept people's gender decision without asking if it's healthy or right. We understand that if somebody wants to kill themself, they need help. Sure they have the right to hate life, but we want to help them be happy, rather than accept their depression and help them kill themself. Similarly, if somebody is transgender, they also need help, and I don't mean that in a derogatory way. I don't see why it is so controversial to say that. In many states, however, if a counselor tries to help somebody with sexual identity issues, they can get their license revoked. I'm all for tolerance, but that doesn't mean we should consider a significant mental disorder as "normal". People with gender issues need help, just like depressed, schizophrenic, and anxious people.

In a word: No.

interfixus 9y ago

Then could the downvoters please explain to me how this male is supposed to be female?

coldtea 9y ago
By the power of will.
CiPHPerCoder 9y ago
Simple: A person's gender is a part of their personal identity. Chelsea Manning says that their gender is female, even if their biological sex is male. As a consequence of respect for their personal identity as a member of society (and NOT fixating on their sex organs, which is frankly creepy), most people will refer to a trans* person as the gender they identify as, not the sex they were born with. Or, if uncertain (because of genderfluidity and new pronouns like Xe/Xir/whatever), just using "singular they" and moving on with your life. It's a polite society thing.
- myaccountzz 9y ago
  > Simple: A person's gender is a part of their personal identity. That's an opinion.
  - CiPHPerCoder 9y ago
    That's actually a fact. Gender is defined as: the state of being male or female (typically used with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones). For most people, your gender and your sex are congruent. For others, it isn't. Even if you don't agree: Why do you care?
    - tree_of_item 9y ago
      Some people care because gender identity is eroding sex based protections. I should think women care a lot that men are now allowed in their spaces based on an internal sense of "gender".
      - CiPHPerCoder 9y ago
        > Some people care because gender identity is eroding sex based protections. What do your greater political fears have to do with treating others with respect? > I should think women care a lot that men are now allowed in their spaces based on an internal sense of "gender". Are you talking about that bathroom debacle? I've got a simple solution: http://scott.arciszewski.me/blog/2017/03/trans-bathroom-rights http://scott.arciszewski.me/blog/2017/03/trans-bathroom-righ...
      - novia 9y ago
        I should think women care a lot that men are now allowed in their spaces based on an internal sense of "gender". No. We don't. Transwomen are welcome in our bathrooms, locker rooms, and spas.
        tree_of_item 9y ago
        Here are a few women who disagree with you: https://www.reddit.com/r/GenderCritical/comments/5dwaqy/peak_trans_iv_tell_your_story_here https://www.reddit.com/r/GenderCritical/comments/5dwaqy/peak...
        novia 9y ago
        There are 7126 subscribers to the subreddit you linked. A notable feminist subreddit that is actively not transphobic (that I am not going to link to because I love it and I do not want it to be brigaded) has 214400 subscribers. So your sample is about 3% of the internet population if we believe that reddit is a representative sample. I sincerely believe that the vast majority of women are tired of being used as an excuse for bigotry.
- interfixus 9y ago
  What's creepy here is the raging fashion of postmodernish, unanchored, up-for-grabs neo-reality. It really is about as Newspeak as it can get. There's no effing subjectivity about male and female. I checked with my cats. They agree.
- tree_of_item 9y ago
  It is not "creepy" to understand that biological sex is a real, observable thing with causal effects on our surroundings, and "gender identity" isn't.
- orblivion 9y ago
  When we refer to things, we use words that convey our perception of them. People identify themselves a certain way, and I can identify them a certain way too. The notion of someone's gender has relevance to others. It doesn't make sense to go purely based on their own self perception. For me, I tend to assign gender by sex. I don't want to disrespect myself by saying something I don't believe. On the other hand I don't want to disrespect others either. So for now my approach is to sidestep the issue and refer to all trans people with "they".
  - Raphmedia 9y ago
    > When we refer to things, we use words that convey our perception of them. We are not talking about cross-dressers. We are talking about transgender individuals. You wouldn't even be able to notice them standing in front of you once their transition is complete.
    - orblivion 9y ago
      Then they might lead me to believe something I wouldn't believe if I knew more. It's not just about what I can see. (I see your point about the word "perception", probably a bad choice of words) But sure, maybe I'd even internalize it and accept it if I knew it but they appeared very convincing, at least for everyday interaction purposes. I probably am more resistant to that than I otherwise would be given the social climate.
      - Raphmedia 9y ago
        > I'd even internalize it and accept it if I knew it but they appeared very convincing, at least for everyday interaction purposes I don't understand that part. I think there are some concepts that are confusing you. All of the transgender individuals that I have known from before their transition pass as their new gender without any issues. The only way anybody would know if you told them. Story time: You know how men always like to boast and compare their masculinity while drinking? Well, one time we were out drinking with friends. A man from my high-school (who was a girl last I saw him) was with us. He is quite manly, has a beard and looks like what you would expect a fashionable young man in his mid twenties to look like. After a few beer one of the guys turns toward the man in question and, without having a clue that this is a transgender individual and tells him: "We know how it is with you lucky guys who hit the genetic lottery and are so manly. With a beard like that I bet all the girls must be throwing themselves at you. I must be half the man you are." ... My jaw dropped. It was a ridiculous situation to witness but it shows just how easy it is to be next to someone who has gone through a complete transition without having a clue. If you live in a city, I'm sure that you have called at least one or two transgender individuals by their new pronoun without being aware of it.
- bobbington 9y ago
  I think all to quickly we rush to accept people's gender decision without asking if it's healthy or right. We understand that if somebody wants to kill themself, they need help. Sure they have the right to hate life, but we want to help them be happy, rather than accept their depression and help them kill themself. Similarly, if somebody is transgender, they also need help, and I don't mean that in a derogatory way. I don't see why it is so controversial to say that. In many states, however, if a counselor tries to help somebody with sexual identity issues, they can get their license revoked. I'm all for tolerance, but that doesn't mean we should consider a significant mental disorder as "normal". People with gender issues need help, just like depressed, schizophrenic, and anxious people.