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The Russian government has been loosely tied with killing journalists and other opponents while Putin may also be amassing the largest fortune on the planet, so

The Russian government has been loosely tied with killing journalists and other opponents while Putin may also be amassing the largest fortune on the planet, so I don't think it's entirely unfounded.

grandalf 9y ago
> The Russian government has been loosely tied Keep in mind that there is a massive propaganda campaign being done by the US to make Americans think Putin is evil. Chances are, Putin is no more evil than any US president. Keep in mind that even the most ostensibly intelligent, reasonable, and articulate president in memory, Barack Obama, happily accelerated the campaign to convict journalists under the espionage act and ramped up drone executions abroad. My point is that the US may legitimately consider Russia an adversary based on geopolitical realities (scarce resources, etc.) but none of this means Putin is more evil than a US president. In the US there is some degree of public consent required for military action and foreign policy, and the best way to make this happen is to create a moral argument. So of course the leaders of all nations the US considers adversaries are framed as evil. But this is just meant to help achieve democratic consent, no serious policy thinkers actually believe it.
- accountyaccount 9y ago
  Not saying the US presidents are innocent by any means, but as far as I know they haven't been suspected of killing American journalists or political opponents. Propaganda or not, anti-Putin Russians have a bit of a track record of untimely death.
  - grandalf 9y ago
    > killing ... political opponents Uh, what are terrorists if not political opponents? Killing people who are deemed to hold certain beliefs without any judicial process linking them to specific criminal activity is simply killing political opponents. This follows from the adage that war is politics with guns. I also do not draw a major distinction between attempting to prosecute American journalists under the espionage act and simply having them killed. Arguably prosecuting them creates at least the same kind of chilling effect on journalism as a whole as murdering them does, and both leaders have the same goal of quelling dissent and intimidating reporters.
    - accountyaccount 9y ago
      >I also do not draw a major distinction between attempting to prosecute American journalists under the espionage act and simply having them killed I'm no expert, but _attempting_ to prosecute and actually killing is probably a worthwhile distinction.
      - grandalf 9y ago
        > I'm no expert, but _attempting_ to prosecute and actually killing is probably a worthwhile distinction. You're being too charitable. Both have the same intent. The more asymmetrically powerful the ruler is, the less lethal the threat needs to be to create a chilling effect. For example, rival gang members (with power parity) must kill each-other because they lack other mechanisms of coercion and must play their only card in the moment. Creating martyrs is always sub-optimal compared to catching and incarcerating "criminals" or forcing compliance by the threat of capture or alienation/ostracism. As a thought experiment, which state has stronger control over its citizens, Russia or Singapore?
  - crdoconnor 9y ago
    >Not saying the US presidents are innocent by any means, but as far as I know they haven't been suspected of killing American journalists Was the US bombing of Al Jazeera's office better because the journalists killed didn't have American passports?
tunap 9y ago
One could easily substitute Russia with US and Putin with Bush, Clinton, Bush, Obama and now Trump; sans "largest". Also, see Berlusconi for fairness.
- accountyaccount 9y ago
  For like 75% of things, yes — that substitution is completely apt. But there's some evidence that Putin pushes things a bit further that doesn't seem to be borne purely of propaganda.
chriswarbo 9y ago
> I don't think it's entirely unfounded. What don't you think is entirely unfounded? Russia/Assange connections, or anti-Russia stories in the media? While I agree with your characterisation of Russia and Putin, it doesn't offer any support ("founding"?) for either of these, other than as an ad hominem which can be applied to lots of countries/heads-of-state.
- accountyaccount 9y ago
  Oh sorry, I meant the intelligence community's disdain for Russia. I realize our ethical high ground is probably like, one stair higher than Russia at best.

The Russian government has been loosely tied with killing journalists and other opponents while Putin may also be amassing the largest fortune on the planet, so I don't think it's entirely unfounded.

grandalf 9y ago

> The Russian government has been loosely tied Keep in mind that there is a massive propaganda campaign being done by the US to make Americans think Putin is evil. Chances are, Putin is no more evil than any US president. Keep in mind that even the most ostensibly intelligent, reasonable, and articulate president in memory, Barack Obama, happily accelerated the campaign to convict journalists under the espionage act and ramped up drone executions abroad. My point is that the US may legitimately consider Russia an adversary based on geopolitical realities (scarce resources, etc.) but none of this means Putin is more evil than a US president. In the US there is some degree of public consent required for military action and foreign policy, and the best way to make this happen is to create a moral argument. So of course the leaders of all nations the US considers adversaries are framed as evil. But this is just meant to help achieve democratic consent, no serious policy thinkers actually believe it.

accountyaccount 9y ago
Not saying the US presidents are innocent by any means, but as far as I know they haven't been suspected of killing American journalists or political opponents. Propaganda or not, anti-Putin Russians have a bit of a track record of untimely death.
- grandalf 9y ago
  > killing ... political opponents Uh, what are terrorists if not political opponents? Killing people who are deemed to hold certain beliefs without any judicial process linking them to specific criminal activity is simply killing political opponents. This follows from the adage that war is politics with guns. I also do not draw a major distinction between attempting to prosecute American journalists under the espionage act and simply having them killed. Arguably prosecuting them creates at least the same kind of chilling effect on journalism as a whole as murdering them does, and both leaders have the same goal of quelling dissent and intimidating reporters.
  - accountyaccount 9y ago
    >I also do not draw a major distinction between attempting to prosecute American journalists under the espionage act and simply having them killed I'm no expert, but _attempting_ to prosecute and actually killing is probably a worthwhile distinction.
    - grandalf 9y ago
      > I'm no expert, but _attempting_ to prosecute and actually killing is probably a worthwhile distinction. You're being too charitable. Both have the same intent. The more asymmetrically powerful the ruler is, the less lethal the threat needs to be to create a chilling effect. For example, rival gang members (with power parity) must kill each-other because they lack other mechanisms of coercion and must play their only card in the moment. Creating martyrs is always sub-optimal compared to catching and incarcerating "criminals" or forcing compliance by the threat of capture or alienation/ostracism. As a thought experiment, which state has stronger control over its citizens, Russia or Singapore?
- crdoconnor 9y ago
  >Not saying the US presidents are innocent by any means, but as far as I know they haven't been suspected of killing American journalists Was the US bombing of Al Jazeera's office better because the journalists killed didn't have American passports?

tunap 9y ago

One could easily substitute Russia with US and Putin with Bush, Clinton, Bush, Obama and now Trump; sans "largest". Also, see Berlusconi for fairness.

accountyaccount 9y ago
For like 75% of things, yes — that substitution is completely apt. But there's some evidence that Putin pushes things a bit further that doesn't seem to be borne purely of propaganda.

chriswarbo 9y ago

> I don't think it's entirely unfounded. What don't you think is entirely unfounded? Russia/Assange connections, or anti-Russia stories in the media? While I agree with your characterisation of Russia and Putin, it doesn't offer any support ("founding"?) for either of these, other than as an ad hominem which can be applied to lots of countries/heads-of-state.

accountyaccount 9y ago
Oh sorry, I meant the intelligence community's disdain for Russia. I realize our ethical high ground is probably like, one stair higher than Russia at best.