7 ms·

$65k is way too expensive to charge for this. Just how greedy is CMU to charge this much? Furthermore Product m Managers are not CEOs, the departments which ali

$65k is way too expensive to charge for this. Just how greedy is CMU to charge this much? Furthermore Product m Managers are not CEOs, the departments which align to deliver the product don't report to them, nor do they control what resources are allocated or have budgetary control. PM's have to negotiate and gain consensus on what is to be built and contend with resources available. In software you can be at the mercy of the development manager and what they want to build, can sometimes be at odds with what you want built. Other times you may have a dev lead who just decides that like as they are building it, they will code what they damn well please, and ignore your architecture team (if you are fortunate to have one). Those are just some of the things a Product Manager learns to deal with to get their product built and shipped.

jasonhong 9y ago
Good points, it turns out that $65k is lower than many of our other master's programs. We also ran through the numbers and that tuition x #students doesn't cover much more than our basic costs. We are a non-profit after all, and one that has a very strong track record in its educational program. What you're telling us is actually very well aligned with what we've heard from our alums and from some companies. Yes, product managers are not CEOs and can't always just tell people what to do. Product managers work with their direct team (typically some engineers, QA, 1-2 UX designers, possibly a data scientist), but also need to know how to interface with marketing, sales, and others. Part of our curriculum looks at how to work with and positively influence others to achieve desired goals. But you're right, that's not easy, though there are some strategies and tactics that work better than others.
- jgruen 9y ago
  So, I'm a PM at Mozilla who did an MDes in Interaction Design at CMU. I'm a dataset of one, but my experience there was absolutely worth the cost. A few notes: - 65k is a lot, but Pittsburgh is cheap compared to the Northern California or New York or almost anywhere. Someone on the thread tossed out 65k a year in additional cost of living; this number is way off. You can get a room for < 800 bucks a month (possibly significantly less if you're willing to commute even a little). Food is cheap, there is modest but acceptable public transit, the city's pretty bikable, and there's plenty of free stuff to do etc etc. TL;DR Pittsburgh is great. - There are lots of fellowships for grads available through CMU. I TAed Web dev and creative coding courses and IIRC, the money I got for doing so completely covered my rent and internet bill. - If you've spent any time at all on the CMU campus, it's pretty clear the the institution is absolutely unique WRT the depth and breadth of CS, Design, HCI, Robotics, and Business talent. BTW, this list is not exhaustive. The sheer density and variety and stuff happening on campus is simply not comparable to working at a startup (which requires laser focus). A big part of the CMU experience is expanding your horizons about what's possible in ways that MOOCS (and I daresay industry) cannot. - Also CMU grad programs place nearly EVERYBODY. It's the primary reason I went there as a chronically underpaid, semi-clueless freelancer having trouble breaking into industry. Their relationships with industry – both formal, and through causal peer/alumni connections – are pretty staggering. All of that being said, I didn't move into a PM role until I'd spent significant time in the UX org at Mozilla learning how the sausage gets made. I definitely only started to grok the on-the-ground dynamics of product management after several years in industry, and I'm still learning every day. My sense is that most PMs have similar trajectories of transitioning into the role after time in industry. I'd be curious about whether industry would look favorably on hiring PMs directly out of school.
- opportune 9y ago
  Can't say this is a compelling argument. Being lower cost than other programs just tells me those programs are overpriced too. Also the whole nonprofit argument is baseless; did you know the NFL was structured as a nonprofit until 2015? Universities and nonprofits in general are well known to waste funds, especially on administrative positions and vanity projects. Not to call this a vanity project, and obviously I am not privy to all of the financial information at CMU so I may be wrong and this program may just be quite expensive. The main problem I see with something like this is that 1: As with most Master's programs, it's probably just a cash grab by the university. Although since this is CMU I assume the placement will be very good, I'm also of the opinion that programs like these can, but not necessarily will, taint the overall reputation of the university by setting lower standards. 2: It's fine for a few universities to offer degrees in Product Management. But the thing is, the market (at least within tech) for this role isn't THAT large, especially when you consider that a lot of product managers start out as developers to begin with. If enough universities start also offering these programs, I assume the placement and utility of the program will suffer greatly. We don't need a glut of PMs the same way we had a glut of lawyers following the recession.
  - jasonhong 9y ago
    Well, if you honestly believe that Carnegie Mellon University is the same as the NFL as a non-profit, especially given our long track record of education and research, there really isn't anything I can say to convince you. So let's just end this here.
    - wtvanhest 9y ago
      His/her point is that being a non-profit is often just a legal structure with tax protection. It is not a valid reason to charge a high price for something. Not addressing his/her point does not make it any less valid. Importantly, faculty and admin staff at both the NFL and CMU are both highly paid.
    - jrjf940 9y ago
      Is this an example of the persistence and determination in the face of adversity and criticism one can expect to learn at CMU?
- gm-conspiracy 9y ago
  Please don't trot out the non-profit defense of private universities.
- wtvanhest 9y ago
  CMU has a great reputation and has come out with a program that is likely to be very successful and the top question is about price. Everyone in higher education should pay attention. We may be seeing the tipping point here where people start questioning whether the best move for them is to borrow $100k for a non-mgmt degree. I think our generation will be the first to raise our kids by saying college is great, but only for the right price.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
exelius 9y ago
As someone who attended CMU for an MBA and took product management courses in the SCS, it's likely worth it. The classes I took from SCS around use-case driven design, project management of software projects, and platform strategy were some of the most directly-applicable classes in the entire MBA program. By way of comparison, I think an MBA from CMU runs somewhere > $110k these days. It is one of the most expensive schools in the country (largely due to its until-recently-non-existent endowment; a rarity among top private schools). Hopefully once the settlement with Maxtor shakes out the school will end up with a healthy endowment (I know they're not getting all $10B but $2B would be a nice start for an endowment). Also, I reject the statement that as a product manager you have no control over the resources. In a product-focused matrix organization, the product manager is ideally responsible for P&L over the product, which means they absolutely do get control over budget. Product management has changed a lot over the last 10 years, and what used to be a powerless position that was a glorified business analyst is now getting budget and control as tech companies reorganize themselves to look like CPGs.
- imatworkyo 9y ago
  CPGs = Consumer Packaged Goods? Also - can you take individual classes like the ones you referenced at CM? or do you need to be in the Masters Program
- ambicapter 9y ago
  What is the settlement between CMU and Maxtor?
- IOT_Apprentice 9y ago
  You may reject it, but you then say ideally. My experience comes from working in technology firms in Silicon Valley for 38 years, with the last 12 in Product Management. Matrix organizations are a rarity these days in high tech and P&L responsibility in the hands of PMs even more so. Further development teams do NOT report to you. Yet the CMU announcement trotted out the PM as the CEO, meme. It is not true and does prospective students a disservice.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

jasonhong 9y ago

Good points, it turns out that $65k is lower than many of our other master's programs. We also ran through the numbers and that tuition x #students doesn't cover much more than our basic costs. We are a non-profit after all, and one that has a very strong track record in its educational program. What you're telling us is actually very well aligned with what we've heard from our alums and from some companies. Yes, product managers are not CEOs and can't always just tell people what to do. Product managers work with their direct team (typically some engineers, QA, 1-2 UX designers, possibly a data scientist), but also need to know how to interface with marketing, sales, and others. Part of our curriculum looks at how to work with and positively influence others to achieve desired goals. But you're right, that's not easy, though there are some strategies and tactics that work better than others.

jgruen 9y ago
So, I'm a PM at Mozilla who did an MDes in Interaction Design at CMU. I'm a dataset of one, but my experience there was absolutely worth the cost. A few notes: - 65k is a lot, but Pittsburgh is cheap compared to the Northern California or New York or almost anywhere. Someone on the thread tossed out 65k a year in additional cost of living; this number is way off. You can get a room for < 800 bucks a month (possibly significantly less if you're willing to commute even a little). Food is cheap, there is modest but acceptable public transit, the city's pretty bikable, and there's plenty of free stuff to do etc etc. TL;DR Pittsburgh is great. - There are lots of fellowships for grads available through CMU. I TAed Web dev and creative coding courses and IIRC, the money I got for doing so completely covered my rent and internet bill. - If you've spent any time at all on the CMU campus, it's pretty clear the the institution is absolutely unique WRT the depth and breadth of CS, Design, HCI, Robotics, and Business talent. BTW, this list is not exhaustive. The sheer density and variety and stuff happening on campus is simply not comparable to working at a startup (which requires laser focus). A big part of the CMU experience is expanding your horizons about what's possible in ways that MOOCS (and I daresay industry) cannot. - Also CMU grad programs place nearly EVERYBODY. It's the primary reason I went there as a chronically underpaid, semi-clueless freelancer having trouble breaking into industry. Their relationships with industry – both formal, and through causal peer/alumni connections – are pretty staggering. All of that being said, I didn't move into a PM role until I'd spent significant time in the UX org at Mozilla learning how the sausage gets made. I definitely only started to grok the on-the-ground dynamics of product management after several years in industry, and I'm still learning every day. My sense is that most PMs have similar trajectories of transitioning into the role after time in industry. I'd be curious about whether industry would look favorably on hiring PMs directly out of school.
opportune 9y ago
Can't say this is a compelling argument. Being lower cost than other programs just tells me those programs are overpriced too. Also the whole nonprofit argument is baseless; did you know the NFL was structured as a nonprofit until 2015? Universities and nonprofits in general are well known to waste funds, especially on administrative positions and vanity projects. Not to call this a vanity project, and obviously I am not privy to all of the financial information at CMU so I may be wrong and this program may just be quite expensive. The main problem I see with something like this is that 1: As with most Master's programs, it's probably just a cash grab by the university. Although since this is CMU I assume the placement will be very good, I'm also of the opinion that programs like these can, but not necessarily will, taint the overall reputation of the university by setting lower standards. 2: It's fine for a few universities to offer degrees in Product Management. But the thing is, the market (at least within tech) for this role isn't THAT large, especially when you consider that a lot of product managers start out as developers to begin with. If enough universities start also offering these programs, I assume the placement and utility of the program will suffer greatly. We don't need a glut of PMs the same way we had a glut of lawyers following the recession.
- jasonhong 9y ago
  Well, if you honestly believe that Carnegie Mellon University is the same as the NFL as a non-profit, especially given our long track record of education and research, there really isn't anything I can say to convince you. So let's just end this here.
  - wtvanhest 9y ago
    His/her point is that being a non-profit is often just a legal structure with tax protection. It is not a valid reason to charge a high price for something. Not addressing his/her point does not make it any less valid. Importantly, faculty and admin staff at both the NFL and CMU are both highly paid.
  - jrjf940 9y ago
    Is this an example of the persistence and determination in the face of adversity and criticism one can expect to learn at CMU?
gm-conspiracy 9y ago
Please don't trot out the non-profit defense of private universities.
wtvanhest 9y ago
CMU has a great reputation and has come out with a program that is likely to be very successful and the top question is about price. Everyone in higher education should pay attention. We may be seeing the tipping point here where people start questioning whether the best move for them is to borrow $100k for a non-mgmt degree. I think our generation will be the first to raise our kids by saying college is great, but only for the right price.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

exelius 9y ago

As someone who attended CMU for an MBA and took product management courses in the SCS, it's likely worth it. The classes I took from SCS around use-case driven design, project management of software projects, and platform strategy were some of the most directly-applicable classes in the entire MBA program. By way of comparison, I think an MBA from CMU runs somewhere > $110k these days. It is one of the most expensive schools in the country (largely due to its until-recently-non-existent endowment; a rarity among top private schools). Hopefully once the settlement with Maxtor shakes out the school will end up with a healthy endowment (I know they're not getting all $10B but $2B would be a nice start for an endowment). Also, I reject the statement that as a product manager you have no control over the resources. In a product-focused matrix organization, the product manager is ideally responsible for P&L over the product, which means they absolutely do get control over budget. Product management has changed a lot over the last 10 years, and what used to be a powerless position that was a glorified business analyst is now getting budget and control as tech companies reorganize themselves to look like CPGs.

imatworkyo 9y ago
CPGs = Consumer Packaged Goods? Also - can you take individual classes like the ones you referenced at CM? or do you need to be in the Masters Program
ambicapter 9y ago
What is the settlement between CMU and Maxtor?
IOT_Apprentice 9y ago
You may reject it, but you then say ideally. My experience comes from working in technology firms in Silicon Valley for 38 years, with the last 12 in Product Management. Matrix organizations are a rarity these days in high tech and P&L responsibility in the hands of PMs even more so. Further development teams do NOT report to you. Yet the CMU announcement trotted out the PM as the CEO, meme. It is not true and does prospective students a disservice.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]