4 ms·

Why use one of those half baked solutions when vim already exists?

giancarlostoro 9y ago
Not everyone is productive using vim.
vortico 9y ago
I've never actually seen anyone use vim more efficiently than the average programmer can use Sublime Text or Atom with no skill and a mouse pointer. It's just too much required engagement to do things as simple as move to a specific point on the screen or uncomment/indent a bunch of lines of code. Installing plugins is tedious, tabs/buffers/windows are clunky, and memorizing key commands for plugins (like a file tree view) is required before using it, not gradually learned using context menus as a crutch.
- nextlevelwizard 9y ago
  You are obviously entitled to your opinion and it might be that you've only seen people who are still learning to use vim, but to give little perspective from someone who has been using for little over two years. Movement: Moving around is a hassle at first, most people insist using arrows instead of hjkl, but even thous are slow and tedious. You get much more mileage from using w, e and b for jumping between words, but even thous get slow after a while and recently I've been using the f and t commands to Find and jump To places (characters) I want to. Obviously it requires some time to learn and I am by no means perfect, but I dare to say it is faster than scrolling and pointing with a mouse. Plugins: I don't really see how installing plugins is tedious, you just slap one of the managers into your ~/.vim/autoload (I use pathogen) and then rest you just clone to ~/.vim/bundle. Vim doesn't have build in plugin browser and one click install, like Atom does, but at least to me that is not a problem. Maybe it's because I don't use that many plugins, who knows. Tabs/buffers: These do take some time to get used to, but I wouldn't say they are any more clunky than your average editors tabs. Memorizing commands: At first it seems like insurmountable task since almost every key is a command and as you mentioned most plugins have their own commands, but truth is you don't need most of them to get started and as you use the tool (or at least thats how it was with me) you Google how to do something tedious faster and there is almost always a better method. As for the "file tree view", I don't know what that plugin is, but I can guess and I used something called NERDTree at start, but vim's build in :find command is pretty powerful at just finding what you need and now I use fzf which makes finding files even faster. Over all I get why you might dislike vim even without trying it (since most vim users constantly push their shitty editor (and dont get me wrong vim is shit, but it's least shit editor I've yet found)), but I suggest you try using it on a side project and see if you like it, don't install any plugins at first just try reading the documentation and making changes to the config as you go along. I bet you'd be surprised how much you'd enjoy it.
  - ruleabidinguser 9y ago
    I've tried and learned vim and I'm very capable of navigating with it (I don't use marks but I use about everything else) and it is precisely good at one thing: being an editor. If you try to make it an IDE, I believe you're just using a bad IDE. It is only effective for me as a very lightweight editor for quickly making simple edits to a file. Why don't I like it as an IDE? * Second hand auto complete * Second hand project management * No debugger These are actually to me huge features and the third party support for each of them exists but doesn't touch the quality of implementation in a dedicated IDE. Not to mention it adds hours of extra work to getting started in an environment you don't already have configured. And frankly, you don't have to learn vim to recognize this.
    - nextlevelwizard 9y ago
      If you need IDE then go with IDE. There are many programming tasks and languages that gain no benefit from IDE-ish things. For me auto complete works just fine and I don't know what project management means.
      - ruleabidinguser 9y ago
        The critical feature of auto complete is discovery, not saving a couple of seconds of typing (its always too slow for that anyways). Even if a plugin exists (which I dont think one does) which has auto complete with in line documentation and method/property details (pretty crucial to discovery), theres not a chance in hell it succeeds in making it presentable in the terminal. I think VSCode/atom fit in the nice space where you don't want huge, intensive projects, but you do want to do some real programming (aka you'll need this discovery and a good debugger).
        nextlevelwizard 9y ago
        >real programming Ok :)
      - signal11 9y ago
- petre 9y ago
  None of Vim and Sublime Text has "Github integration" or "deploy to Azure" or "send feedback to Twitter" type of features. They are plain, simple, useful editors which get the job done.
  - vortico 9y ago
    Sure, I think we can all agree that bloated features like this are undesirable. But there are many options for editors that don't have these features, gladly.

Not everyone is productive using vim.

I've never actually seen anyone use vim more efficiently than the average programmer can use Sublime Text or Atom with no skill and a mouse pointer. It's just too much required engagement to do things as simple as move to a specific point on the screen or uncomment/indent a bunch of lines of code. Installing plugins is tedious, tabs/buffers/windows are clunky, and memorizing key commands for plugins (like a file tree view) is required before using it, not gradually learned using context menus as a crutch.

nextlevelwizard 9y ago
You are obviously entitled to your opinion and it might be that you've only seen people who are still learning to use vim, but to give little perspective from someone who has been using for little over two years. Movement: Moving around is a hassle at first, most people insist using arrows instead of hjkl, but even thous are slow and tedious. You get much more mileage from using w, e and b for jumping between words, but even thous get slow after a while and recently I've been using the f and t commands to Find and jump To places (characters) I want to. Obviously it requires some time to learn and I am by no means perfect, but I dare to say it is faster than scrolling and pointing with a mouse. Plugins: I don't really see how installing plugins is tedious, you just slap one of the managers into your ~/.vim/autoload (I use pathogen) and then rest you just clone to ~/.vim/bundle. Vim doesn't have build in plugin browser and one click install, like Atom does, but at least to me that is not a problem. Maybe it's because I don't use that many plugins, who knows. Tabs/buffers: These do take some time to get used to, but I wouldn't say they are any more clunky than your average editors tabs. Memorizing commands: At first it seems like insurmountable task since almost every key is a command and as you mentioned most plugins have their own commands, but truth is you don't need most of them to get started and as you use the tool (or at least thats how it was with me) you Google how to do something tedious faster and there is almost always a better method. As for the "file tree view", I don't know what that plugin is, but I can guess and I used something called NERDTree at start, but vim's build in :find command is pretty powerful at just finding what you need and now I use fzf which makes finding files even faster. Over all I get why you might dislike vim even without trying it (since most vim users constantly push their shitty editor (and dont get me wrong vim is shit, but it's least shit editor I've yet found)), but I suggest you try using it on a side project and see if you like it, don't install any plugins at first just try reading the documentation and making changes to the config as you go along. I bet you'd be surprised how much you'd enjoy it.
- ruleabidinguser 9y ago
  I've tried and learned vim and I'm very capable of navigating with it (I don't use marks but I use about everything else) and it is precisely good at one thing: being an editor. If you try to make it an IDE, I believe you're just using a bad IDE. It is only effective for me as a very lightweight editor for quickly making simple edits to a file. Why don't I like it as an IDE? * Second hand auto complete * Second hand project management * No debugger These are actually to me huge features and the third party support for each of them exists but doesn't touch the quality of implementation in a dedicated IDE. Not to mention it adds hours of extra work to getting started in an environment you don't already have configured. And frankly, you don't have to learn vim to recognize this.
  - nextlevelwizard 9y ago
    If you need IDE then go with IDE. There are many programming tasks and languages that gain no benefit from IDE-ish things. For me auto complete works just fine and I don't know what project management means.
    - ruleabidinguser 9y ago
      The critical feature of auto complete is discovery, not saving a couple of seconds of typing (its always too slow for that anyways). Even if a plugin exists (which I dont think one does) which has auto complete with in line documentation and method/property details (pretty crucial to discovery), theres not a chance in hell it succeeds in making it presentable in the terminal. I think VSCode/atom fit in the nice space where you don't want huge, intensive projects, but you do want to do some real programming (aka you'll need this discovery and a good debugger).
      - nextlevelwizard 9y ago
        >real programming Ok :)
    - signal11 9y ago
petre 9y ago
None of Vim and Sublime Text has "Github integration" or "deploy to Azure" or "send feedback to Twitter" type of features. They are plain, simple, useful editors which get the job done.
- vortico 9y ago
  Sure, I think we can all agree that bloated features like this are undesirable. But there are many options for editors that don't have these features, gladly.