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I think that the reasoning against shipping apples across the globe is that consumers do not pay the full price; one might argue that the transportation is subs

I think that the reasoning against shipping apples across the globe is that consumers do not pay the full price; one might argue that the transportation is subsidised by our extraction and burning of oil at a rate much quicker than it is formed

civilian 9y ago
Hmmm, I can get behind the idea that oil isn't priced appropriately given it's externalities, but I would've focused on CO2, with a carbon tax being the solution, rather than looking at the rate at which oil is reformed.
- dredmorbius 9y ago
  Time is a factor of production. We are depleting oil reserves at about 5 million times the rate they formed.[1] Corollary: oil price reflects an off-books depletion factor of roughly 5 million-fold. The price is vastly too low. Our fossil fuel consumption translated to present total biomass production (NPP, or the "photosynthetic ceiling"), is a very substantial fraction of all plant growth, I believe about 40%. We currently account for 20% of NPP consumption without utilising biomass as fuel.[1] The history of why extractive natural resources are costed on a labour-required basis only (and some very questionable economic and legal theories support this) is an interesting accident of history, religion, law, geology, business, oil, and more. I've been digging into that, though have further to go. The short answer is that we'd started using the stuff long before we understood its creation, and by the time we understood we pretended not to care.[2] The history of oil price response to overextraction in particular is mesmerising, with the booms at Titusville, Spindletop, and East Texas especially. The latter saw price per barrel fall from a $1 target, to $0.13, and then further to $0.02/bbl, before the national (and effectively global) production quota system managed by, of all organisations, the Texas Railroad Commission, was established in 1931. That lasted until 1972, after which you may be aware oil's price fluctuated somewhat.[3] Similar issues exist for other strategic minerals, as first grasped during WWII, leading to the creation of the Harbord List, now the U.S. Strategic Mineral Reserve.[4] (Oil is also subject to strategic reserves. You may be aware of an incident involving the U.S. Naval Strategic Petroleum Reserve a few years back, the Teapot Dome scandal of the Harding administration.[5]) Until the early 20th century, only direct labour was considered as a cost of production.[6] ________________________________ Notes: 1. https://dge.carnegiescience.edu/DGE/Dukes/Dukes_ClimChange1.pdf https://dge.carnegiescience.edu/DGE/Dukes/Dukes_ClimChange1.... See also https://redd.it/2cvap7 https://redd.it/2cvap7 and https://redd.it/1x9maq https://redd.it/1x9maq 2. Partial expansion here https://redd.it/5w1zw3 https://redd.it/5w1zw3 and here https://redd.it/5rnjg0 https://redd.it/5rnjg0 In particular, the religion and Young Earth Creationist associations are fascinating. 3 Daniel Yergin, The Prize, chapter 13 generally, though also the history of monopolies and cartels: Standard Oil, As-Is Agreement, Seven Sisters, National Producers, OPEC. http://www.worldcat.org/title/prize-the-epic-quest-for-oil-money-and-power/oclc/986188094 http://www.worldcat.org/title/prize-the-epic-quest-for-oil-m... For oil price, BP's Annual Statistical Review. See: http://static2.businessinsider.com/image/4defd684cadcbbe55e0d0000/chart-of-the-day-crude-oil-history-june-2011.jpg http://static2.businessinsider.com/image/4defd684cadcbbe55e0... Current report: http://www.bp.com/en/global/corporate/energy-economics/statistical-review-of-world-energy.html http://www.bp.com/en/global/corporate/energy-economics/stati... 4. E.g., http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article33647.html http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article33647.html 5. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teapot_Dome_scandal https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teapot_Dome_scandal 6. Alexander Hamilton Church, Production factors in cost accounting and works management, 1910, p. 9. https://archive.org/stream/productionfactor00churrich#page/8/mode/2up https://archive.org/stream/productionfactor00churrich#page/8...
  - maxerickson 9y ago
    What's the future value of oil in a solar or nuclear powered world? It's important to know that when considering the factor of 5 million you toss out there.
    - sweettea 9y ago
      Pretty high. It is a primary source of long-chain hydrocarbons, a primary feedstock for chemistry. Most biologically active chemicals produced by industry rely on oil as the chief starting material.
      - dredmorbius 9y ago
        Though any carbon feedstock can address that. For a materials standpoint, there are substitutes. Natural gas as feedstock to the Haber-Bosch process and coking coal in steel production, for reducing ore, are both much more formidable. They account for a large fraction the consumption of both (15% in the case of coal), and substitutes are difficult. The story of where Earth's crustal iron comes from, when, and how, particularly as banded iron formations, is another interesting story. https://ello.co/dredmorbius/post/5l_8MqtVwLLvX_DabPjY-g https://ello.co/dredmorbius/post/5l_8MqtVwLLvX_DabPjY-g
    - dredmorbius 9y ago
      The value is what it delivers. The cost is what's required to create it. The price is what it exchanges for. These are three independent attributes. Generally, though, sustainability comes when cost <= price < value. https://www.reddit.com/r/dredmorbius/comments/48rd02/cost_value_price_money_and_emergy_developing/ https://www.reddit.com/r/dredmorbius/comments/48rd02/cost_va...
      - maxerickson 9y ago
        So the mention of the 5 million is just something akin to fear mongering then? The horrors of oil being all used up and energy cheaper than ever.
mprovost 9y ago
You are probably paying that price no matter what - if you want apples out of season, you either have to keep them in a coolstore for months, or ship them from another part of the world where they are in season. It could be that buying local apples that are 6 months old has a higher impact than shipping them.
- flyaway 9y ago
  Apples don't really all have the same "season" - even though they have a time to be picked, more tart apples are meant to be stored in cool conditions, with the starches converting to sugars and the acidity dropping over time. For example, the Newtown Pippin: http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/05/dining/it-s-crunch-time-for-the-venerable-pippin.html http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/05/dining/it-s-crunch-time-fo...

civilian 9y ago

Hmmm, I can get behind the idea that oil isn't priced appropriately given it's externalities, but I would've focused on CO2, with a carbon tax being the solution, rather than looking at the rate at which oil is reformed.

dredmorbius 9y ago
Time is a factor of production. We are depleting oil reserves at about 5 million times the rate they formed.[1] Corollary: oil price reflects an off-books depletion factor of roughly 5 million-fold. The price is vastly too low. Our fossil fuel consumption translated to present total biomass production (NPP, or the "photosynthetic ceiling"), is a very substantial fraction of all plant growth, I believe about 40%. We currently account for 20% of NPP consumption without utilising biomass as fuel.[1] The history of why extractive natural resources are costed on a labour-required basis only (and some very questionable economic and legal theories support this) is an interesting accident of history, religion, law, geology, business, oil, and more. I've been digging into that, though have further to go. The short answer is that we'd started using the stuff long before we understood its creation, and by the time we understood we pretended not to care.[2] The history of oil price response to overextraction in particular is mesmerising, with the booms at Titusville, Spindletop, and East Texas especially. The latter saw price per barrel fall from a $1 target, to $0.13, and then further to $0.02/bbl, before the national (and effectively global) production quota system managed by, of all organisations, the Texas Railroad Commission, was established in 1931. That lasted until 1972, after which you may be aware oil's price fluctuated somewhat.[3] Similar issues exist for other strategic minerals, as first grasped during WWII, leading to the creation of the Harbord List, now the U.S. Strategic Mineral Reserve.[4] (Oil is also subject to strategic reserves. You may be aware of an incident involving the U.S. Naval Strategic Petroleum Reserve a few years back, the Teapot Dome scandal of the Harding administration.[5]) Until the early 20th century, only direct labour was considered as a cost of production.[6] ________________________________ Notes: 1. https://dge.carnegiescience.edu/DGE/Dukes/Dukes_ClimChange1.pdf https://dge.carnegiescience.edu/DGE/Dukes/Dukes_ClimChange1.... See also https://redd.it/2cvap7 https://redd.it/2cvap7 and https://redd.it/1x9maq https://redd.it/1x9maq 2. Partial expansion here https://redd.it/5w1zw3 https://redd.it/5w1zw3 and here https://redd.it/5rnjg0 https://redd.it/5rnjg0 In particular, the religion and Young Earth Creationist associations are fascinating. 3 Daniel Yergin, The Prize, chapter 13 generally, though also the history of monopolies and cartels: Standard Oil, As-Is Agreement, Seven Sisters, National Producers, OPEC. http://www.worldcat.org/title/prize-the-epic-quest-for-oil-money-and-power/oclc/986188094 http://www.worldcat.org/title/prize-the-epic-quest-for-oil-m... For oil price, BP's Annual Statistical Review. See: http://static2.businessinsider.com/image/4defd684cadcbbe55e0d0000/chart-of-the-day-crude-oil-history-june-2011.jpg http://static2.businessinsider.com/image/4defd684cadcbbe55e0... Current report: http://www.bp.com/en/global/corporate/energy-economics/statistical-review-of-world-energy.html http://www.bp.com/en/global/corporate/energy-economics/stati... 4. E.g., http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article33647.html http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article33647.html 5. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teapot_Dome_scandal https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teapot_Dome_scandal 6. Alexander Hamilton Church, Production factors in cost accounting and works management, 1910, p. 9. https://archive.org/stream/productionfactor00churrich#page/8/mode/2up https://archive.org/stream/productionfactor00churrich#page/8...
- maxerickson 9y ago
  What's the future value of oil in a solar or nuclear powered world? It's important to know that when considering the factor of 5 million you toss out there.
  - sweettea 9y ago
    Pretty high. It is a primary source of long-chain hydrocarbons, a primary feedstock for chemistry. Most biologically active chemicals produced by industry rely on oil as the chief starting material.
    - dredmorbius 9y ago
      Though any carbon feedstock can address that. For a materials standpoint, there are substitutes. Natural gas as feedstock to the Haber-Bosch process and coking coal in steel production, for reducing ore, are both much more formidable. They account for a large fraction the consumption of both (15% in the case of coal), and substitutes are difficult. The story of where Earth's crustal iron comes from, when, and how, particularly as banded iron formations, is another interesting story. https://ello.co/dredmorbius/post/5l_8MqtVwLLvX_DabPjY-g https://ello.co/dredmorbius/post/5l_8MqtVwLLvX_DabPjY-g
  - dredmorbius 9y ago
    The value is what it delivers. The cost is what's required to create it. The price is what it exchanges for. These are three independent attributes. Generally, though, sustainability comes when cost <= price < value. https://www.reddit.com/r/dredmorbius/comments/48rd02/cost_value_price_money_and_emergy_developing/ https://www.reddit.com/r/dredmorbius/comments/48rd02/cost_va...
    - maxerickson 9y ago
      So the mention of the 5 million is just something akin to fear mongering then? The horrors of oil being all used up and energy cheaper than ever.

mprovost 9y ago

You are probably paying that price no matter what - if you want apples out of season, you either have to keep them in a coolstore for months, or ship them from another part of the world where they are in season. It could be that buying local apples that are 6 months old has a higher impact than shipping them.

flyaway 9y ago
Apples don't really all have the same "season" - even though they have a time to be picked, more tart apples are meant to be stored in cool conditions, with the starches converting to sugars and the acidity dropping over time. For example, the Newtown Pippin: http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/05/dining/it-s-crunch-time-for-the-venerable-pippin.html http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/05/dining/it-s-crunch-time-fo...